yes, not egotistical, egocentric. my bad.
your player character is also a mass murderer, is your player character evil?
No. your OC is the protagonist.
I mean ⊠kinda? Yeah.
Also, was Arthas evil? Garrosh? Nerâzhul? Kelâthuzad? Zulâjin?
Maybe, but I donât really have much of a problem with that. I think that there are a lot of pretenders to âempathyâ and âselflessnessâ that have really just idealized themselves in their own mind. You donât ever really know what another person is feeling or thinking, so empathy only goes so far.
Well, if someone known as a âdestroyer of worldsâ wasnât sentenced to the Maw, then it probably was unjust. But I donât think that she was sentenced there.
Sylvanas explained to Anduin that this wasnât her goal. Maybe you think she was lying? I donât.
They were going to the maw regardless. Unless Sylvanas is the one who took out the Arbiter.
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Evil in the sense of the punisher being evil for murdering probably. but there is a difference between that and doing it for some purpose that you are keeping Hidden from people, Thati s just being stupid.
btw we still dont know WHY she is doing anything.
And Blizzard has been saying the same gibberish about Soyvanas constantly that âbfa will reveal her motivations and it will all be made clear at the endâ
I would honestly not be surprised if next expansion is all about helping the âTRUE ALLY OF SYLVANAS BECAUSE SYLVANAS WAS JUST PLAYING GIGA BRAIN STEROIDS CHESS with everyoneâ
Sorry but that just makes a character f****ing stupid.
The fanbase is just Extremely tired of the whole sylvanas stick.
Are you currently in brain surgery process? or something? I would suggest not posting while you are on the operating table.
I mean yeah, but like, thatâs just making assumptions based on the current narrative and not the information we were provided back then.
Back then, there was no implication that she was 100% willing to squander her own people when those people are what keeps her further from the death that she had feared.
She could yes, her people were ultimately hers to do with as she pleased, but she certainly didnât want to speed them toward their fate, cuz ultimately thatâd mean she too is one step closer to the grave. Especially cuz we didnât know back then that she specifically wants people to die, whether that be hers or her enemiesâ, to feed their souls to some dark master she had pledged herself to in the very same place that she herself had feared.
I mean, prolly cuz sheâs never been the type of character to publicly declare any feelings of empathy or concern for the well-being of others.
I came out of EoN knowing that weâd likely never reach a point in which the Forsaken lose their value because thatâs the entire purpose of her whole âwe gotta kill and raise folks to bolster the Forsakenâ stint that started with Cata after EoN. To keep the Forsaken going as a dominant force in the north EK.
Of course, in retrospect I was obviously wrong to presume that, because of course the writers found a way to make exactly such a subversion of expectation actually happen.(via several ideological and character motivation retcons) But I honestly never did think weâd ever get to a point in which Sylvanas sees no value in the Forsaken, because then what else does she have by that point?
Yeah, a meatshield that she cares about because if she stopped maintaining said shield, itâd no longer be capable of providing substantial protection from her numerous enemies and the fate she so desperately wants to avoid.
They lost their value cuz Blizzard decided to have Sylvanas suddenly running off to make deals and getting chummy with evil death entities off-screen who in return gave her random power boosts to the point where sheâs basically at shonen anime villain levels of power, with which she no longer needs armies or a people to protect her because she now contains the power to wipe out virtually anything in her path.
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This is very true. It also ties back to my original point. With how Sylvanasâ relationship with the Forsaken up through the fall of Arthas was portrayed; and with absolutely no real motive given to her to start caring for her people more as people, than tools for her personal use; what was preventing her from discarding her Bulwark if a point came were they were no longer of sufficient value to her? Just like she did her Arrows?
That is the one primary question I came out of EoN with. âIf they ceased to be of value, just like her Arrows, would she discard them again?â And that isnât using new information years later, that was my genuine reaction to that story. Which is why in Cata is around the time I started seeing her as their manipulative abuser. And quite frankly, nothing more than another Wix ⊠who cared just enough to wear a mask.
Its this sort of same questioning in Legion that resulted in my rage-quitting for several months right after Launch. I made the mistake of going into Stormheim first right after the Broken Shore and beyond being convinced by that story that she was very much the same Sylvanas from EoN ⊠I asked myself another question. âWould Blizz really have killed Jin the way that they did if all they wanted from Sylvanas was for her to fill the same role he could have ⊠but worse?â And that answer was âNo. They killed him off and put her in charge to get her to do something with the Horde they couldnât justify with him as Warchiefâ. It was truly as simple and basic as that.
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There is a difference between mowing down monsters and mobs, and starting unneccessary wars and destroying three capital cities.
Try again, and be less disingenuous next time.
Well if you are a Horde player character you did in fact help destroy three cities.
If you are an Alliance you just helped wipe out everyone elseâs culture.
If you play either faction you have participated in unnecessary wars and even necessary ones.
So there really isnât much of a difference.
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you canât be a morally good murder hobo thatâs not how it works.
You can be a morally conflicted murder hobo though.
But your victims are going to think you are an evil murder hobo.
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how was I not being honest?
was it because I mixed up egotistical with egocentric?
I agree with Mellow, egotistical is not the same as egocentric. Sylvanas is egocentric, I donât believe she is egotistical, so I still donât agree with Zahnwrites. I just canât go back and edit because Iâve reached my limit.
Egocentric means she doesnât consider anyoneâs thoughts of feelings but her own, but she does. Ego centric simply means someone thinks the world revolves around them and they put themselves first and I do think Sylvanas is self centered like that.
As Iâve explained above, Sylvanas and the Forsaken religion is centered on Divine Humanism. Itâs a very ego centric concept. Through divine humanism everything that Sylvanas has done is in service to a higher power, herself. People will misinterpret that how ever they want. The Church of the Holy Light is not the only religion in World of Warcraft. The Cult of the Forgotten Shadow is the inversion of the Church of the Holy Light. While the Light believes they can change the will of mortals by compelling them to be good and thatâs how the Light exerts itâs will on the universe. The Shadow believes that any one person can change the outcome of the Universe by exerting their own will on others. Sylvanas burning Teldrassil and provoking others to retaliate against her is exerting her will, and under the Shadow thatâs okay. Itâs how âDomination magicâ came to exist in this universe. It still resulted in Tyrandeâs choice to become the Night Warrior so Sylvanas exerting her own will did result in a change to the Universe. Not to mention some pretty good story telling in the process.
Yes it still sucks for the victims and no itâs not justifying Sylvanasâs actions. But even the Titans seem to exert their will on the Universe as a manifestation of this Divine Humanism so itâs just as common and prevalent as The Lightâs approach.
Itâs really hard to peel back the layers and make you or anyone else really understand this point of view without debunking the misconceptions. And I fully expect a lot of this will go over a lot of peopleâs heads because they havenât delved deep enough into Forsaken RP lore.
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Hey woah you canât call out half the people on this forum like this!
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Are we seriously having a discussion over whether Sylvanas âEveryone is arrows in my quiverâ Windrunner is selfish/selfcentred/egocentric/whatevertheheck?
Like, Sylvanas?
Sylvanas âAll will be tools of my vengeance?â Windrunner?
Sylvanas âThey are my bulwark against the infiniteâ Windrunner?
That Sylvanas?
I swear by God, I take a few months break from the SF, and its like everyoneâs been spiking the fruit punch with the grand delusion special.
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Maybe I accidentally dropped a blight bomb with that; but one only needs to step out of the blast radius 
. Canât say Iâve never been like Anduin before.
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It has been a recurring theme since the end of the Blood elf starting zone in BC, when you bring her her family necklace. She throws it on the ground, saying she doesnt care about it, but almost immediately summons a choir of banshees to sing âLament of the Highbornâ while she bends down and lovingly picks the necklace back up.
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So ⊠her harboring lingering feelings for her family from time to time translates into her coming to care for her Mongrel Race of Rotten Corpses. I mean, did it ever occur to you that the reason Sylvie couldnât fully let go of the latter is because unlike many of her own people ⊠she was never âForsookâ? Her family and people didnât reject her, and rather it was her own behavior and choices that put strains on those relationships?
Essentially, you have nothing concrete. Despite the one who keeps liking your posts on this exact topic demanding exact quotes from the content to justify stances, all you have is a few small moments of her showing lingering feelings for her family. Not her Forsaken. Or the Horde. Is that right?
EDIT: And btw, it does kind of make sense that Sylvanas would not willingly get attached to her people, because she was always shackled to her prior life. And they are living embodiments of everything she hates about her current form. Sheâs not Undead now because she wants to be, sheâs Undead because she believes its better than the alternative. But if she were given an option to simply âget release from her tormentâ, sheâd take it. Her Forsaken are a constant reminder of the parts of her she hates. The parts of her Arthas forced upon her.
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I really dont mean to be as dismissive as this sounds but, I dont believe you. From the way ypu have botched quptes from EoN and taken things way out of context. The way you completely missed the theme of EoN. The way you seem to feel about Sylvanas, I dont believe you ever read EoN as a fan of the character, just lookin to get some feels.
No. I believe (and this is just conjecture) that you have only quickly skimmed EoN to look for arguments against your forums opponents.
Thats wrong of me to think that way, cuz I dont even know you, so Im sorry.
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You are literally talking about a story that fundamentally recontextualizes her entire relationship with her Forsaken up to the fall of Arthas. You do understand that what that story effectively did was show that Sylvanasâ relationship with her Forsaken up until that point was a LIE right? That it was a mask she put on to twist and use them for her own personal revenge? And that once she achieved that, she threw them away ⊠knowing full well if she did they would all die. And she ONLY came back when she was sent to hell.
EoN DID NOT give her a motive to actually give a damned about them, beyond her need to use them to protect herself. And way to friggen move the friggen goalpost when I asked what exactly DID give her that motivation to start caring the Forsaken more as people; over her need to use them as tools. Because you canât. Because there isnât one. She was never given a reason to change her stance on how she saw her people, or the Horde. Its that people just wanted her to, because the alternative made her come off as kind of a horrible person.
EDIT: And yes, I am being very truthful about how I reacted to EoN when it first came out. Which is why Iâve been waiting for the better part of a decade for her to abandon them again. Ever since Cata I have seen her as their actual manipulative abuser, and the more I became a raving Goblin fan since ⊠the more I became aware just how much her relationship with her Forsaken was reflective of Wix and his BilgewaterâŠ
ugh, her family left her alone to defend Quelâthalas. her sister Veressa sided with the Kirin Tor in a conflict against the High Elves being rejected from practicing magic in Dalaran because the High Elves judged humans for their magic addiction, which put Sylvanas and Veressa as political opponents.
Alleria abandoned her responsibility as the eldest to become Ranger-General to pursue her own crusade against the orcs who killed thier family in the first and second wars and Sylvanas was left alone to defend Quelâthalas in the Third War. Thatâs enough to begrudge her sisters and feel âabandoned by themâ
Then when both of them came back into her life after she died protecting their homeland, they called her a monster and an abomination for being undead and seeking help from the Horde. thatâs rejection from her family. The whole premise of the Three Sisters comic was about this long standing family conflict and Sylvanasâs rejection, even after they rejected her she still couldnât kill them as she planned, because she cares for them.
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Are you conflating the High Elven political party with the Blood Elves? Who she worked to get into the Horde? Who still honor her to this day, as she fought and died FOR THEM? Not for the High Elves who had already abandoned Quelâthalas at the end of the 2nd war? Or how she herself screwed up her relationship with Vareesa and Alleria, who in no way rejected for being undead? But rather her own garbage behavior and choices?
I get that because you literally cannot see Sylvanas as anything other than a victim, therefore EVERYONE ELSE is to blame for anything and everything she ever does ⊠but Sylvie was not âForsookâ. Not the same way someone like Voss was by any stretch. She shares in the Forsakenâs experience with the Scourge, that is true. Its therefore such a shame and tragedy that she allowed herself to become so much like Arthas over the years.