And for me personally, this isnt even a point of no return. Real life politicians hang good soldiers out to dry all the time. Did Putress think Sylvanas was going to take the fall? No… for my undead character, death to the living was Forsaken foreign policy at the time of the wrathgate. Nathaniel Mawthorne can easily rationalize the Wrathgate as a troubling event of a confusing time in Forsaken history, like an old southern lady’s racial slurs coming back to haunt her. Like that old southern lady, Mawthorne likely still harbors anti-living racism deep down and doesnt really care that non-scourge died at the wrathgate, red flag or blue flag.
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At the time Sylvanas only had a singular goal and that was to kill Arthas, whatever it took. And yes I too loved that character motivation. She had no loyalty to the Horde or the Alliance at that time why should she care a handful of Horde and Alliance soldiers got caught in the crossfire if it managed to kill Arthas? It was a great story and entirely in character.
And then the Battle for Undercity happened and that was the start of Sylvanas trusting Vol’jin and Varian and that all came crashing down when they both died in Legion. It was intentional that they left her with no allies and made her vulnerable and ppl wonder why she lashed out and tried to consolidate her power.
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I cant hit the heart button enough times for this.
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In hindsight knowing that they retconned vol’jin’s choice to make her Warchief, as a whisper machinations of the Jailer and his minions suggest it was the Jailer who put her in this vulnerable position knowing she’d lash out and he would benefit from it, again plays into the idea that Sylvanas is also being negatively manipulated by the Jailer and that makes him just as much an enemy to her, and her ultimately having no control in her being used as another one of Jailer’s pawns.
But the vixen is gonna outfox the fox.
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My favorite Sylvanas quote is that sarcasm dripping “go with honor general” in the worgen Battle of Gineas into questchain.
Best delivery of any line, ever. The audacity of Garrosh’s orcs and honor. Cromush had more honor than any of them, he’s the only orc I trust.
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Let’s not forget that Sylvanas’s defeat in Quel’Thalas is entirely her own fault. She didn’t call for help and send runners at the first sign of the Scourge… Or, indeed, the second or third. There were two Elf-gates guarded by armies of Farstriders and soldiers under her command protected partly by geographic barriers in the forms of the rivers and dense wood and she never sent for reinforcements until Silvermoon was within sight. Her “heroic death” is a lot less brave and noble when you realize that if she hadn’t been an arrogant glory-hound obsessed with stopping Arthas that the High Elves may not have seen the day where everything they loved was brought low by a ceramic pot being dipped in their magic jacuzzi. Blood Elf stans, swerve.
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First the dwarf hunter and now you. Who let all the anti Horde characters dogs out of their cage? Time to get them back on a leash before they can share more nonsense opinions.
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What lore are you reading? She sent runners they were all killed by the Scourge. Are you seriously saying that the fall of Quel’thalas was Sylvanas fault because she didn’t do enough?
It’s almost as bad as saying the Night Elves failed themselves and deserved to get burned because they ignored Sylvanas scare tactics she used to get them to evacuate because they were safe behind a wall of wisps… sounds like victim blaming to me…
Dark’han betrayed his own people and that’s why Sylvanas was overwhelmed at the battle of Quel’thalas. The elfgates should have been enough to buy her more time.
As an ancient Warcraft 3 gamer, I sneer condescendingly at your ignorance. Are you also aware that Sylvanas didn’t even get a shot off during her last stand in the original take and Arthas just ran up and smacked her? It was like she failed a quick time event, in retrospect it’s so unceremonious that it’s hilarious. She also catches Arthas later and is so busy ranting about what she’s going to do to him that Kel’Thuzad has time to run up and shoo her off before she can kill him! Totally embarrassing show for a “master tactician”, truly, hahaha!
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I mean, you are right, for a supposed Master Tactician a lot of sylvanas plans do end up failing quite spectacularly or she allows someone to get under her skin and she ruins her own plans.
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Play the original game, the campaign is hilarious Luxio. I’m mostly just memeing around here but my point is that she didn’t actually send any runners until the third mission in Quel’Thalas by which point you’ve breached all the elf-gates and are about to reach the city. At that point the Scourge had reanimated an even bigger army than the one they started with and Sylvanas’s hesitation to do even the most basic logical decision of informing her superiors of what was going on from the first moment she became aware cost her! Mad funny, ngl.
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well the official game sources say this about the event:
Lor’themar Theron says: Sylvanas Windrunner was our kingdom’s protector. Had she and her rangers not met Arthas with such fierce resistance, our people might no longer exist.
Lor’themar Theron says: She paid the ultimate price so that enough of us might escape to rebuild our fallen kingdom.
Lor’themar Theron says: When Arthas raised her as a banshee and turned her against Quel’Thalas, it broke all our hearts.
Lor’themar Theron says: I’ve had my share of disagreements with Sylvanas… But I will never forget her sacrifice. She was the Ranger-General of Silvermoon. Nothing will ever change that.
so the odds stand against your take.
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Someone sacrificing themselves, doesn’t make them a tactical genius…they aren’t the same thing.
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Oh, probably, sure, I’m just memeing around with the oldest lore take. Amusingly, they didn’t change much of it in Reforged except that Anasterian actually tries to stop you from just walking up and yeeting the Sunwell and it ends about as well as you’d predict.
Do you notice that they are all from ROLEPLAY servers. They’ve all been role-playing a little too hard amirite?
Ah, I see. I accept your surrender.
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Sylvanas tapped her fingers on the table, thinking. “Let us make sure Tyrande does not return. The kaldorei evacuation—it helps us if they use every resource to get their people off the World Tree before we arrive, correct?”
“I believe so, Warchief,” Saurfang said. It would reduce the number of prisoners the Horde would need to care for, it would take fighters off the line to guard the evacuation, and it would mean that most of the Alliance’s magic wielders would need to remain on Teldrassil to assist instead of joining the battle in Ashenvale.
She pointed to the map. Darkshore. “We need to frighten them before we arrive here. If they decide to fight instead of run, the final step of this battle will be messier than all the rest,” she said. “What can we do to make the civilians of Teldrassil so afraid they can think of nothing but running?”
…
The Sentinels were not surrendering. Even as a tide of Horde flooded Darkshore, they fought on, trading their lives to give the civilians of Teldrassil every chance to evacuate.
Sylvanas had no objection. More dead enemies? Fewer prisoners? They were doing her a favor.
…
This battle was not about a piece of land. Even Saurfang knew that. Taking the World Tree was a way to inflict a wound that could never heal. Losing their homes and their leaders would have ended the kaldorei as a nation, if not a people. Even the loss of one leader would have been enough to create a tide of despair. The wounds of this battle would have bled, festered, decayed, and rotted the Alliance from the inside out. Anduin Wrynn would have lashed out in a final, desperate war, looking for a miracle, because only a miracle would save them.
But a miracle already had. A miracle granted by the honorable hand of a foolish old orc.
And an overconfident warchief. Best to lay blame where it belonged. This was her mistake as much as Saurfang’s.
This conquest of Darnassus would rattle the kaldorei people. They would grieve for their lost, fear for their imprisoned, and tremble at the thought of the Horde ransacking their homes. But they would not fall to despair. Not anymore. Malfurion’s impossible survival would give them hope. Their wound would heal.
…
She strode toward the shoreline, ignoring the last few skirmishes and the wailing of those unfortunate kaldorei who had been unable to escape Darkshore. She studied the shape of Teldrassil towering above her in the moonslight. Soon, it would be in the hands of the Horde.
“Secure the beach,” Sylvanas said. “Prepare to invade the tree.”
A wound that cannot heal. Sylvanas needed to think of a new way to inflict one. There was no turning back.
…
Her expression didn’t waver. “This was your battle. Your strategy. And your failure. Darnassus was never the prize. It was a wedge that would split the Alliance apart. It was the weapon that would destroy hope. And you, my master strategist, gave that up to spare an enemy you defeated. I have taken it back.
When they come for us, they will do so in pain, not in glory. That may be our only chance at victory now.”
He wanted to kill her. He wanted to declare mak’gora and spill her blood in front of Horde and Alliance alike.
But she was right.
A wound that can never heal. That had always been the plan. And Saurfang had failed to inflict it.
The story of Malfurion’s miraculous survival would have spread among the armies of the Alliance as proof that they were blessed in their cause.
War would still have come. That had been certain the moment Saurfang had led the Horde into Ashenvale. And it would have been what he had feared most: the meat grinder, spending so many lives to achieve so little, ending with a whimper, and thus dooming future generations to a war nobody could win.
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She never claims to be a tactical genius. It’s other people who claim she is based on her experience. Lorthemar has known her for a thousand years and has a relatively unbiased opinion of her and he still calls her a tactical genius.
Therefore we can assume his opinion is correct. She IS a tactical genius that doesn’t mean she doesn’t make mistakes. In fact she is her own biggest critic. In AGW she blames her failure to anticipate the Night Elves moves as her own over confidence. She’s very self aware that she makes cocky mistakes.
Being “too cocky” isn’t a punishable crime. It’s a character flaw, one that hurts her own best interest and leads to failure for her.
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More of her plans succeed though. I’m sure her win/loss ratio still allows her to be called a master tactician. It’s not moot if she looses some battles. there are literally such things as ,“no-win scenarios”
Im trying to take your criticism seriously but it’s just “I’m threatened by smart women.” And I can’t take that seriously. They say that men say that they find smart women attractive but the actual math doesn’t add up, and it boils down to visit heterosexual men are intimidated by smart women. I mean if that’s your argument. I get it. Sylvanas is intimidating because she’s exceptionally intelligent. No argue from me there.
If it makes you feel better to downplay her intelligence to make you feel better, you do you boo. 
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There’s an interesting question that gets asked a lot in lit analysis (especially for speculative fiction), which is: at which point does an anti-hero’s actions signify them becoming an outright villain.
Arthas is one of those characters that’s interesting to look at because Stratholme is the turning point for him; it’s the moment when he has crossed a threshold (as even Uther acknowledges) that he can’t come back from. No matter what good Arthas did after Stratholme (in some hypothetical/alternate scenario), he still crossed the line.
Arthas shifts from being an anti-hero (a central character who doesn’t align with the typical heroic attributes), to being a villain (a character who forces change in a plot through harm and damage, or sinister motives). Arthas turns away from the virtuous attributes that made him a good Paladin, and embraces revenge as his main attribute, and pursues the thoughtless and remorseless sacrifice of others in order to achieve his goals.
Players can still enjoy Arthas’ story, for sure, but that doesn’t make him an anti-hero anymore. Same with Sylvanas, only that Blizzard tried to pull the wool over our eyes (which I really don’t think worked on anyone).
They’ve been playing Sylvanas as a character who has been manipulating everyone to achieve her own goals (breaking death?), but they’ve been ineffective at demonstrating that she’s doing it for the good of everyone (if that’s her intended purpose at all). At best, it feels like an afterthought in order to justify not axing her after all she’s done.
We also need to keep in mind that this isn’t a novel, or a single player story; this is an MMORPG where, supposedly, everyone’s perspective and story matters.
There are a multitude of perspectives we’re seeing and experience: Genn, Tyrande, Saurfang, Thrall, Anduin, Varian, the victims of Teldrassil, victims at the Wrath Gate, pretty much everyone alive on Azeroth at the moment - including the player characters… All of these characters have suffered unspeakable pain at Sylvanas’ hands, and for so many of them… what happens in a different realm (the Shadowlands) is of zero consequence at all.
Will Sylvanas’ deal/betrayal of the Jailor undo the pain she’s caused on Azeroth? Never.
Would the victory of Arthas over Mal’ganis have undone the pain and suffering of the victims or survivors of Stratholme? Or the soldiers of the First Legion in Northrend? Similarly, never.
We as the reader/viewer/player may be able to go: “Ohh, okay, I get what she was doing.” But the character still crossed over and that part can’t be ignored.
What good does Sylvanas being suddenly portrayed as an anti-hero do for the characters/races/players who have suffered? What Blizzard is doing is on par with J.K. Rowling turning around at the end of book 7 and saying: Well, Voldemort is gunna win because he was right all along, and Harry just didn’t know that Voldemort was trying to look out for the good of all magi. Yes, Voldemort is a character, but he’s not the only one.
Once you cross that line from anti-hero to villain, you pass a narrative point of no return where you’re forcing a choice between protagonist and the antagonist, and it’s impossible to pull off in an MMO type of game, because not everyone will be choosing the same thing.
It’s also why (IMO) the faction conflict doesn’t work the way Blizzard tries to run it.
If you put a conflict between two factions, one has to win in the end. Otherwise you end up with an unfulfilling resolution (especially when you repeat that same story). Blizzard trying to drag out resolutions into later expansions only exacerbates the lack of any resolution.
All of the fighting, loss, and suffering characters/players have endured results in nothing for either side, except a repeat of the same narrative where people just get more and more pissed off, and grow tired of the hype/let down.
Sylvanas may say that, Luxio, but she doesn’t mean it, and her actions show this.
Exploring the diverseness of each race is the direction the Warcraft story has needed to go for years now. The company has spent a decade now blowing up the factions and stripping them down to nothing, focusing the whole time on the big picture, and not the individual elements. We have no concrete ideas as to what values each faction embodies now, and it’s time for that soul searching.
But once again, however, Blizzard has avoided that subject entirely by going “Oh look, another shiny planet!” and distracting us from what could be the most engaging story they’ll ever tell in this franchise.
We have a whole world full of potential to explore. It’s where the Horde can become a collection of races, each with their own culture, instead of being a faction poised on the brink of either committing genocide again or being hunted to extinction. And where the Alliance can explore it’s own legacy independent of the High Kingship that has steered it towards weakness and blandness.
Warcraft’s greatest elements have always been the uniqueness and richness of each race’s culture and character. This faction conflict has, increasingly over the years, driven us away from those diverse cultures, and forged us into “Horde” or “Alliance”, and nothing else. You can’t look at the actions of the Forsaken without attributing that blame to the Horde, or the actions of the Night Elves in Ashenvale without attributing that blame to the Alliance.
It’s why Tauren and Forsaken culture didn’t click in Garrosh Horde, and why people who championed characters like Thrall were vilified in Sylvanas’ Horde. It’s why the Alliance hasn’t had any significant cultural development for any race except for Humans in ages now.
WoD and Legion could have explored the Draenei and the Orcs cultures back on Azeroth and how they adapt and adjust after seeing into the past. Or explored IN DEPTH the Forsaken’s trouble with procreation, instead of summing it up by making Sylvanas a bad guy who wants to enslave divine entities or w/e the hell Eyir was. Or explored hw the Tauren take to their ancient history and ties to the War of the Ancients. Or the Kaldorei and how they might get along with the Shal’dorei, but instead we got a few quips from Tyrande and then they became enemies.
Blizzard loves these big moments like invasions and other dimensions appearing and bla bla bla, but then immediately runs away from any meaningful, nuanced development that would further expand the narrative for the two factions that really matter. I feel like we’re watching a kid slam two action figures together to make them fight; no story, just constant explosions.
The story needs to pull away from these huge concepts of faction identity, and focus on racial and character identity… the elements which, originally, defined the early Horde and Alliance that we know from Vanilla.
Re: Wrath Gate:
Blizzard will continue to change the context and details as it fits their needs going forward.
Their entire business is shaping the past to fit the present. Blizzard is basically the infinite dragonflight, but more evil.
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