I feel like most of the anti-'s wave thier hands around like " all the things she did" and yet provide no specific or clear examples of things she did.
And when the list does come up of things she actually did it’s a small list. Like 1) she knew about the blight and encouraged it’s use 2) she tortured Koiltra 3) she threatened Lorna Crowley. It’s a pretty small and unmoving list.
You’re correct in saying I don’t have an answer at what point is “no return” for Sylvanas - or any character really - when placed in her position. There are questions about “what kind of return?” but when the highest level of coercion is placed upon someone, it’s pretty hard to objectively say they are acting freely.
I hold Arthas to a similar standard. In some actions, his culpability may be mitigated to some extent; in other actions there are questions about whether the ends justify the means. While he (canonically) makes the decisions he makes, he also is not free of some external influence. I don’t pretend to agree with every action he took (nor with every action Sylvanas took) but I am more than willing to accept that it’s not as simple as “Arthas bad.” That doesn’t make his actions any less horrific, it tries to contextualize them in a world where we have literal magical hats that whisper into your mind and also swords that give you superpowers.
Since we don’t know (yet) how Sylvanas’ story will unfold, I’ll try to answer “What would it have taken for Arthas to be beyond redemption of some kind?” I’m not sure. He undertook some horrifying actions, but if I’m given freedom to retcon some internalization as I please, I’ll give it a try:
Arthas learns that the Scourge are a direct result of the power of the Jailer influencing Azeroth and that the Jailer is also attempting these types of actions on other worlds (the Jailer mentions the Lich Kings in plural - maybe not just Arthas and Bolvar). He knows the corruption will eventually overcome him, but to defeat the Scourge once and for all he has to find someone capable of mastering life and death to eventually overthrow the Jailer.
He holds the Scourge at bay, preventing them from completely overrunning Azeroth (factually accurate). He knows it’ll take extreme action but he’s made that sacrifice before - at Stratholme and on the shores of Northrend. To find someone worthy he raises the strongest of Azeroth into undeath and tortures them in the hopes of spurring them and their loved ones into action against the greatest evil in the universe.
When he has finally removed the will of Ner’zul, he leads the armies of Azeroth to Northrend, leading to the enslavement of numerous heroes (eventually attempting to raise a plucky band of well-trained adventurers). When deus ex machina intervenes and kills him, he has created numerous Death Knights as well as the Forsaken who were strong enough to break from his will, and hopes it will be enough to eventually destroy the Jailer.
Arthas has still done unimaginable horrors. It doesn’t really change any of his actions, but now it portrays his decisions in a different light. I’m not saying that it would somehow absolve him of his crimes, nor would it make him a pristine hero, but in some ways it redefines him in the light of a narrative about whether the ends justify the means.
As a tidy little tie-in, if Sylvanas is acting to undermine the Jailer (and not just mustache twirling evil or just plain stupid) then she also becomes a similar narrative about whether the ends justify the means, but this time with the actual experience of what eternal torture feels like (for whatever length of time she experienced).
It’s easy for folks to forget this, but following Theramore, Jaina went to the Alliance and suggested annihilating Orgrimmar (the Horde capital as a response to a port city). The Wrynn’s balked, suggesting the cost would be too high. She then went to Dalaran and asked the Mages to move Dalaran above Orgrimmar and incinerate the city. The Council said that likely too many innocents would die. At which point she began researching into how she could effectively utilize the Focusing Iris (that she had hidden with an underlying theme of reusing it as a weapon) to destroy Orgrimmar via flooding the city with Water Elementals. She then went to Kalimdor and LAUNCHED THAT ATTACK. Thrall raced to defend Orgrimmar and managed only to hold the wave back - so Jaina then proceeded to try to kill him - at which point Kalec finally arrives and manages to talk Jaina down and she dissipates the spell.
She literally (not figuratively) attempted to kill everyone in the Horde capital. Not “she considered it” - her attack was stopped by Thrall stopping her weapon. If someone launched a nuclear warhead large enough to vaporize the capital city of their adversary - but the weapon was stopped by some sort of missile defense system - it’d be pretty hard to completely absolve the launcher of guilt. Yet it’s basically forgiven due to prior actions (while not as extreme), her grief, the fact that no one actually died regardless of how hard she tried, and that eventually she decided to stop trying. No one held her eternity in the balance, or tortured her soul, she was just grief stricken.
Then she stopped trying to commit mass murder and suddenly everything is fine and she’s not hunted as a war criminal (which is also a bit of a running theme in Warcraft, help the good guys and all evil is forgiven).
The double standard is that people are treating Sylvanas as if she is the same as Garrosh (usually worse) when she is faced with eternal torture by a cosmological power. Even worse, somehow Garrosh ends up in Revendreth, but Sylvanas somehow deserves the Maw (and according to some here, she deserved the Maw at the end of Wrath of the Lich King).
It feels that way. Skipping certain key moments, using certain phrases, and intentionally (or unintentionally - sometimes it’s tough to tell) ignoring major plot considerations. It’s either very rushed writing or they’re preserving the ability to display whichever option they want to show ultimately (whether that portrayal is decided already or not I don’t know).
The discussion about the planned war are very interesting to say the least. Greymane’s actions against Sylvanas provide some justification in believing the Alliance could strike against the Horde. Likewise, it’s clear that the amount of animosity built between the races likely would never be resolved - war was inevitable, whether that year or in 50 years.
Sylvanas asks about destroying Stormwind, which Saurfang basically says is impossible, then Sylvanas tracks back to asking if the same was true for Orgrimmar, which causes Saurfang to realize their danger.
Saurfang realizes the largest issue with destroying Stormwind is that their navy isn’t strong enough, but both navies were weak at the moment. As such, the Horde could solidify their grasp on Kalimdor by removing the largest Alliance presence (Teldrassil) though it might cost them the Undercity. Saurfang’s plan was to hold Teldrassil hostage to protect Silvermoon and the Undercity, while both believed at the very least it would divide the Gilneans and Night Elves. Their biggest concern ultimately was the presence of Malfurion and Tyrande.
Then Sylvanas suggested slowing their assault to allow Tyrande to evacuate civilians. She wanted them to run instead of fight.
Also in context of Shadowlands. What the Forsaken have done is and who the Forsaken are, are more like the Maldraxxi than the Scourge. The Maldraxxi were the inspiration for both the Scourge and the Forsaken.
And yet the entire player base is more accepting of the Maldraxxi and thier practices than the Forsaken. There’s a double standatd here.
If the Maldraxxi are received as good because thier use of the plague and necromancy is done to protect the Shadowlands why should anyone look down at the Forsaken for using those same tactics to protect the Horde? Or themselves as a facet of the Horde?
Struck a Bargain with the most evil being that wants to end all life
Killed Saurfang
Wanted to enslave Eyir
Destroyed undercity
Destroyed teldrassil
Commited genocide against the night elves, burned most of them alive and sent them to the maw where they were tortured and forged into weapons of the jailer
Started the fourth war which got many many killed on both factions
Manipulated the Horde into commiting genocide
Had Calia killed
Did to Delaryn what Arthas did to her
Also killed tons of wildlife in Teldrassil
Works alongside the one that’s behind Arthas
Ordered the Wrathgate
(Did to the night elves what arthas did to her people)
inb4 “you forgot to be more specific how did they use the blight in all those cases can you link youtube videos I am too stupid to know all that stuff so it wasnt stupid enough”
Yes a zone is all that is needed for such a reply. if you were asking me to list Zul’s crimes I would just have replied with “Zandalar” or whatever the place is called. Because that covers the entire area. And you are reminded of the story that happens there.
I dont have to say “He betrayed Rastakhan”, Simply mentioning the zone should be sufficient. Its like saying “Brits never invaded a country” and then you just reply with “America” you dont need to say more sometimes.
Afrasiabi really fudged that up, and it is generally accepted by the community that this was an off the cuff comment and shouldn’t be taken as cannon. It could be taken as indication of a ret con, but that has never been addressed in game. What is true is that the 3rd party omniscient narrator in the undead starting zone opening cutscene claimed the wrathgate was not Sylvanas. The deliberately cleared that up in the starting zone immediately after WotLK.
Blizzard retcons things as often as you wash the dishes. The comment from afrasiabi and other blizz employees etc, as well as chronicles 3 confirms she was behind the wrathgate.
Just that she doesnt act like an idiot and say “I DID IT YOU GUYS” it was the betrayal of Varimathras and putress that was the unexpected part for her.
When the source of the Wrathgate comment is Alex Afrasabi , who has a long history of baiting the fandom with misinformation about Wrath of the Lich of Lich King despite the fact that he was a narrative designer at the time says a lot about how we should take his comments with a grain of salt.
Alex Afrasabi had his own headcanons about what happened in WoLK even when it was current. Canon is still canon.
“We’re not saying one way or another,” Danuser said. “We want you to see how the story plays out in the chapters to come. Sylvanas has certainly had an interesting history, and looking back at the choices she made is something we want the players to look back at and revisit.”
This was in response to questions about what Afrasabi said. So basically, no, it’s not canon that she did do it. Though it’s open to interpretation that she may have done it.
Im not arguing that her involvement in the wrathgate shouldnt be retconned. I actually think her scapegoating Putress and Varimathras is a better story. Sylvanas as ruthless, do whatever it takes, villain-adjacent character is actually the Sylvanas I like. Its a shame that the undead aren’t their own faction, but the Sylvanas trying to hide her illegal experiments and machinations from the Noble orcs is one of my favorite WoW themes.
And as a Worgen, I can tell myself that this justifies my hatred of Sylvanas. As an undead I can love that about her… because I am able to adopt different perspectives and motivations as a roleplayer.
Except a lot of stuff happens in these zones. I don’t (and I think most people don’t) have a perfect memory of what happens in every single zone. And you are making a very precise claim, so the individual acts are highly relevant.
Like, if someone said one famous serial killer is worse than another. And you reference Montana. I probably know he killed people there, doesn’t really speak to the crimes in much sense.
Less is also sometimes just insufficient.
There’s a large gulf between ‘name the crimes in a situation comparing crimes’ and ‘give me time stamped videos’.