The Unofficial Stonemaul Ogre Playable Race Discussion Megathread!

Aye, they’d have to have at some point.

Always possible they landed someplace we don’t have access to. The World(Of Warcraft) is after all a lot bigger than in game.

Hopefully she’ll realize the immense potential they actually have and use them for more than cheap labor.

Imagine them building ships while the Kelfin help to man and repair them in dock and field Marine corps to serve on them. The Horde could have its old shipwrights back and get a wondrous seafaring force as well if Blizzard would add both races.

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It’s hard for me to really read her intentions in general. She claims to be using the Dunemaul to help the Horde here:

“My other assistants are making sure our proud new comrades are put into comfy cages and shipped to where they’re needed most. For the Horde.”

However, we have yet to either see her or the Dunemaul, so it’s possible she is having them do stuff for her own ambition (nothing that would affect the Horde, as she seems loyal to them) or maybe the Bilgewater Cartel elsewhere. Or maybe she is doing something to earn brownie points for the Horde. This was since Cataclysm, however, so who knows what she is up to?

If the Dunemaul Clan is destined to be a NPC Ogre faction, then at the very least, seeing some Dunemaul bodyguards for some of the Horde Goblins and wherever Megs is would be good to see to explain their disappearance. The Dunemaul would still be part of the Horde in this case and we could see what they’ve been up to since Cataclysm.

Of course, one of the reasons I was thinking of multiple clans would be to offer several different customization features, similar to how Mag’har Orcs are. Not to mention that seeing the Horde Ogre clans and maybe a few others making up the playable Ogre faction at least would offer greater roleplaying opportunities.

Certainly, there is plenty you can do with the Dunemaul Clan. While they shouldn’t be the sole playable Horde Ogre faction, I’d like to see them as a part of it so they aren’t forgotten and get some development. Seeing all the Horde Ogre clan loose ends tied up in general and leading to them becoming playable would also be great.

I do think when we see the Horde Ogre clans back in the picture, Megs and the Dunemaul Clan should be a part of it.

Yet another reason I feel Kelfin and the Unshackled would be great members of the Horde. They can help with ship building, ship repair, rescue missions in bodies of water, and deep diving investigation. Lots of possibilities here! :japanese_goblin::trident:

Dream big, Ogre fans! :cut_of_meat::japanese_ogre:

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Ogers for the Horde! :japanese_ogre: I can imagine several misadventures I’d have with the RP community if they were added. A ton of fun in my “City of Monsters” guild if I ever return to it. There’d certainly be many seesaws to launch people off of.

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Speaking of RPing, as I’ve mentioned before, there are a lot of possibilities for Ogre RPing:

You can be the big and dumb type with the Stonemaul and Dunemaul Clans (as well as any other clan that would join).

You can also be the smarter and more brutal type with the AU Stonemaul Clan from Draenor, who should be part of the MU Stonemaul Clan.

Different types of Ogres for however players want to RP their Ogre. If they go the multiple clan route, that makes them that much more versatile and great for world building! :smiley:

Dream big, Ogre fans! :cut_of_meat::japanese_ogre:

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As I explored Feralas in Classic WoW, I did see that there was no Stonemaul Hold or any MU Stonemaul Clan members that I can see (unless I missed them somewhere), which I pretty much expected. The MU Stonemaul Clan must’ve arrived here during Cataclysm to help out with the Gordunni threat.

Which leads me to think that it is likely that the MU Stonemaul Clan should have reclaimed their home at least by the time Cataclysm arrives. It doesn’t quite make sense to be able to send so many of their members to help out in Feralas if they were still trying to get their home back. It likely wouldn’t even be a case of Garrosh telling them to go there against their will, as it seems like they’re there of their own choice and happy to fight for the Horde, likely as a way to start repaying their debt.

Of course, not helping things is that it isn’t shown or mentioned in-game that the MU Stonemaul Clan got their home back. Especially when phasing became a thing during this expansion. As it stands, Dustwallow Marsh is stuck in the Cataclysm time period. This is one of the big reasons why there is a lot of confusion on whether the MU Stonemaul Clan ever got their home back or not.

As for the emissary in Pandaria, likely Brackenwall Village is still being utilized by the MU Stonemaul Clan as a Horde outpost, so that would explain why they were from there. Hard to imagine again that the MU Stonemaul Clan would be able to spare someone for such an endeavor if they were still fighting to reclaim their home to this day.

Like I’ve grumbled about before, it would be good to get an update on what all the MU Stonemaul Clan is up to, both in Dustwallow Marsh and Feralas. A lot of time has passed, and things could’ve happened since then in the area. Especially with the world (of Warcraft!) likely being overrun with undead while we’re off in the Shadowlands. Hopefully, we’ll get some answers soon, and we can see the MU Stonemaul Clan and the other Horde Ogre Clans again, still fighting the good fight for the Horde!

Dream big, Ogre fans! :cut_of_meat::japanese_ogre:

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I took a couple of quick screenshots of an Ogre, using the Kovork toy, in the Necrolords area. The Kovork toy model is a bit on the small side, so I’ll have to remember to take elixirs of giant growth the next time I use it.

Here are a couple of screenshots I took:

An Ogre stands in front of the Necrolords banner, ready to get to fighting!

An Ogre stands in front of the Necrolords’ home base entrance, surveying the horizon.

The Necrolords covenant seems like the most fitting of the four covenants for Ogres. The Theater of Pain seems like it would be a favorite place for them, and with the Necrolords being the defenders of the Shadowlands, it seems like there would be plenty to fight. An afterlife of eternal fighting and food just sounds like the perfect afterlife for Ogres!

Dream big, Ogre fans! :cut_of_meat::japanese_ogre:

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Your recent posts about the old questing made it really hit me again how completely undeveloped the Horde ogres are, and just how weird that is. I guess it’s probably just an unintended side effect of the times they were considered for playable but passed up. As in, they fully intended to flesh out the Horde ogres, but when deciding on another race instead, wanted to save that development for when they do become playable, but since they keep getting pushed off as playable they’re getting no lore in the mean time. After all these years, it’s quite conspicuous, especially since they have absolutely no problem using ogres everywhere else.

Even though it at least had something for Horde ogres, Cataclysm is probably still the biggest disappointment for me. Brackenwall Village certainly isn’t the only quest hub to keep its old quests, but it’s more of a shame for it than others, and then Stonemaul Hold barely adds anything to their story and isn’t even led by an ogre.

I don’t know what our chances of a world revamp really is (especially on any sort of drastic scale), but I’m increasingly realizing that I definitely want playable ogres either before that point or as part of it. I don’t want another version of Azeroth that neglects the history of one of the Horde’s classic races.

At this point I’m almost feeling like their lore being neglected annoys me more than them not being playable, but them being playable would certainly call attention to them desperately needing that lore. I’m a big ogre fan, but this isn’t just headcanon, you know? Ogres weren’t just a classic Horde race, they are still canonically part of the Horde; it’s just so weird to ignore that so much especially with how well that fit the look and feel of the Horde.

Speaking of fitting in, I know I’ve already said it but I agree that they fit Maldraxxus like a glove as well. I finally have a character for each Covenant, and it’s given me a little bit more respect for each one’s story, which has only made me want to make a proud Maldraxxus ogre even more (though even if we get ogres in the very next expansion, I probably won’t invest too much time in the old content with him, the thought is there ;P).

Incidentally, I still haven’t been able to get Kovork Kostume. :frowning: I am 100% convinced that it’s either broken or at some point there was an undocumented change to make it insanely rare for whatever reason. I know they say they don’t comment on drop rates, but I don’t need a percentage, I just want to know if there’s a reason I’ve had to grind unsuccessfully for months for a drop that others report as being guaranteed. Unfortunately, since Arathi isn’t exactly active content anymore I’m not sure anyone is even noticing at this point. No one else ever posted on my bug report.

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It is very weird to see how the Horde Ogre clans are treated, especially given the MU Stonemaul Clan’s role in Warcraft 3.

There had to have been some fondness and interest in them being a playable race in general. Especially since they were allegedly considered as a playable race in Vanilla, confirmed considered in Cataclysm, and allegedly considered for WoD. It honestly feels like them becoming a playable Horde race was inevitable in a future expansion.

I don’t know why, but it seems at some point, they either became forgotten or were just not looked at for consideration any more for whatever reason. I don’t know if it could be the complexity of a two-headed option (which I know would both be expected and likely a nightmare to try and code), or if newer people in charge viewed them as just a monster race destined to just be a NPC race (which is a bit absurd, to be clear), but at some point, the Horde Ogre clans just became an afterthought.

Moreso with both Cataclysm and the war in BfA, which I’ve ranted about many times but still stands to be a huge missed opportunity. For Cataclysm, even if they weren’t made playable, they had a reason to seek out and help the Horde kill Deathwing because of the whole evil Black Dragonflight slaughtering them and taking over their home.

And for BfA, the MU Stonemaul Clan, having a history in attacking Theramore and being part of the death of Jaina’s father, somehow do not become part of this big war against the Alliance and Kul Tiras in any way, shape, or form despite the Horde needing as many troops as possible and even going through an alternate universe to gain more allies to fix this. The AU Stonemaul that came with the AU Mag’Har don’t even show up anywhere either for that matter, and I can only assume that Megs Dreadshredder is off having the Dunemaul Clan doing stuff for her.

It’s a frustrating thing all around, from the loose ends of the Horde Ogre clan storylines to them just no-showing a big war that would make some sense for them to be involved in. This especially since the MU Stonemaul Clan were one of the first members of Thrall’s Horde since Warcraft 3. Who knows why they went from being a contender for playable status to just being forgotten past MoP.

Them being considered big and dumb shouldn’t be a factor against them, either. It isn’t like they need to be the leading star of storylines, but it is a refreshing option for character choice. There is also the ability to be complex despite the stereotype of Ogres. The MU Stonemaul’s plight against the Black Dragonflight and the AU Stonemaul getting acclimated are good examples of that.

In Everquest 1, Ogres were savage and relentless like the Draenor Ogres, only to get cursed to stupidity on a level even lower than the MU Stonemaul Clan (who are capable of building ships and blacksmithing among other things). Despite that, they still had some complexity. Their Warrior and Shadow Knight guilds were not fond of each other, and you had to be careful questing as you would cheese off the other guild if you helped one out, making visiting their capital city a bit dangerous.

Thus, you can have some complexity as opposed to being a one-note race. Not to mention that Ogres in the WoW universe have quite a bit of complexity already and interesting history in general. You can still appeal to those who would want big and dumb Ogres, and that could be some good quests, but you can also appeal to those who want a more savage Ogre such as those on Draenor.

I’m sure things can be done to make Ogres interesting and a supporting part of future storylines. The Horde can always use soldiers, and it would be good to see the MU Stonemaul Clan repay its debt with the Horde by helping against world-ending threats or kerfuffles with the Alliance.

The world revamp rumors are just that…rumors. It’s something I do mention because the MU Stonemaul Clan, at least, would get some updates of some kind there. They could still appear in another expansion, of course, but it’s more likely to see such a thing occur with an old world revamp. Granted, I don’t know the chances of another old world revamp, but it’s still an interesting thought.

As frustrating as it is, it seems all we can do is continue to keep going with our discussions and support. Blizzard does seem to be listening currently…for the most part. Hopefully, they do see the different race request megathreads to consider for the future, and with any luck, they would be open to considering reintroducing the Horde Ogre clans in the future. Not a guarantee by any means, but I still feel it’s important to continue doing something other than just silently hoping.

As I said before, if I felt I was just wasting my time, I wouldn’t be here at all. All we can really do is just keep at it and hope for the best. It has been a long march for us Ogre fans, but we should keep at it to make sure that the Horde Ogre clans are not forgotten and to show that they deserve better than to just be abandoned.

As for the Kovork Kostume toy…that is a shame to see that the drop rate still has been lower than what it use to be. At this point, I would submit bug reports in-game and see what happens. May not be a guarantee to get it back to normal, but it could potentially help. I hope you do get the drop from it soon, though, and wish I had something more helpful to say about it.

At any rate, interest in playable Horde Ogres has been going since the game launched. Not just here, but also on forums of other websites. While again it wouldn’t be elf level of numbers, I do think a decent amount of players would be excited for them. If Blizzard would build something like Kul Tirans from the ground up and give them some love and personality with a touch of creativity, I don’t see why the same couldn’t be done for one of the original members of the Horde.

Dream big, Ogre fans! :cut_of_meat::japanese_ogre:

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Over time I’ve submitted the bug in game, on the forums, and called attention to it on Twitter I believe. I haven’t pushed in a little bit because they have a lot more important things to worry about right now, but I am a bit worried about it just getting forgotten because it isn’t current content and most people who kill Kovork aren’t even going to know they’re missing out on anything to bother reporting it. Although I wouldn’t really care anymore if we get a playable ogre announcement first. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Anyway, I am actually fairly hopeful at the moment about playable ogres. It’s a tempered hope (believe me, I’ve gotten my hopes up too many times over the years, one time for a very specific reason, to get excited without something concrete at this point), but a hope nevertheless (because I also just kinda can’t help crossing my fingers anyway because each time is a chance).

I mentioned it before, but the big deal they made out of being able to do unusual body type things for races now is good news for ogres. While a second head is a little different than Mechagnome prosthetics or naga tails, I think there’s a good chance that it’s the sort of thing they finally gave themselves the ability to do, which is obviously a good sign for ogres.

I still think the neglect for Horde ogres is more a side effect than simply forgetting, but the consequence has been the same in the mean time. As I said before, I think a double-edged sword for ogres is how evergreen they are. It both means that they could be dropped into pretty much any expansion, and that it’s easy to decide that they’re the ones who will wait while something that may not come up again soon gets priority. However, if the customization changes really do allow them to make two-headed ogres a legitimate customization option, that might finally be the thing worth adding them for now as opposed to later: just to show off that new tech if nothing else.

The funny thing about the Horde ogre story is, as I think you touched on, it doesn’t even require much. I’m sure some fans of other races could have seen my last post and think “why should a race that’s not even playable get story when X race or Y race is playable and barely gets any attention or lore?”, and they’d probably have a point about their race, but the thing about ogres is that I’m not even expecting much. While I think you could do a lot with them, especially after Warlords of Draenor fleshed them out, I’m just asking for presence more than anything else.

The existing history of ogres in the Horde, coupled with them fitting into the Horde perfectly thematically and visually, means that half the work is already done. While I’d certainly love to see more (and them being playable, of course ;P), I think it would go a long way to just have ogres appears in Horde conflicts. All I’m asking for is to just see ogres fill out the Horde as guards in quest hubs or as troops in World Quests in places like Battle for Azeroth, that sort of thing. An ogre boss in a place like Siege of Orgrimmar would have been great (Garrosh’s family was fleshed out with an anti-ogre backstory, but it seems perfectly in-character for Garrosh as far as I’m concerned to still use ogres as powerful cannon fodder if nothing else, especially if you do use some stupider ones that don’t realize that he hates them).

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The Horde Ogre clans having a presence of some sort would make me feel a lot better.

Sure, I’d grumble about them not being playable and them being right there, which can be applied to a few other races in both factions, but at least it would mean that they wouldn’t have been forgotten. As I said, I don’t expect them to take the spotlight in general, but just having them around would make the Horde feel much more complete.

To at least have the MU and AU Stonemaul Clans helping as troops in BfA, maybe with some Dunemaul for Megs to earn some Horde brownie points, would’ve made sense. Especially given the MU Stonemaul Clan’s role in the attack on Theramore and how they owe the Horde several big favors. It would’ve made me feel better to see the Horde do something with all its members before deciding to go back to AU Draenor with a legitimate need to get more troops.

As for the Horde Ogres being an evergreen race, I could see that at least a first. The problem is that there have been a few times it would’ve made sense to add them in as playable based on the theme or storyline, only to…not even get a presence whatsoever. If Horde Ogres kept get pushed back, then at least it means they would still be getting considered for playable status, which in a way I suppose is better than them being forgotten or just rejected with disdain.

Despite all that, part of me still feels like Horde Ogres are more of a matter of if and not when. I’ve admitted before that each time an expansion announcement trailer is announced, part of me hopes to see playable Horde Ogres finally announced in them. Of course, we don’t know what direction the game is going, and a lot of recent events have not helped things at all, but with Blizzard potentially taking feedback (hopefully for the long term), I still have some hope. Tempered hope, but still some hope.

Dream big, Ogre fans! :cut_of_meat::japanese_ogre:

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I honestly think they’ll go the High Elf route with Ogres should we ever get them. In that we’ll technically get Ogres, but they’ll be Lightbound or some other such nonsense for “flavour” instead of just getting straight Ogres.

I doubt that.

We got that for void elves cause the Horde already had blood elves.

Ogres wouldn’t be a copy of an alliance race.

I don’t personally see that, myself, though I can understand why there is a worry for something like that.

I don’t really see Ogres in the same situation that Void Elves ended up being in. As a result, I don’t really see a need to give Ogres something of that nature in order to act as a compromise in getting them playable. Nor should there be a compromise for them, or any race in general in my opinion.

There is plenty you can do with just regular Ogres that would make them unique enough and fit them in storylines. I don’t see how giving them lightbound, cursed, Keebler Elf, void, or other similar themes would be practical in any way, shape, or form. Nor would I want Ogres to get treated in such a way.

Ogres should just be full blooded regular Ogres. They’re iconic as is and would be a lot more meaningful as themselves. That is what us Ogre fans want, and to do otherwise really wouldn’t feel right. Hopefully, Blizzard would just do that as opposed to tinkering with them in such a way.

Dream big, Ogre fans! :cut_of_meat::japanese_ogre:

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You could have had High Elves while Horde already had Blood Elves. The point is, they wanted to be cute, original, and terribly creative. Straight up “High Elves” would have been boring by their standards, just as straight up Ogres would be. They need a clever twist. I’m not sure what that clever twist would be, but they would undoubtedly get one.

Just like High Elf fans and Void Elves.

If regular Ogres were appealing to the current development team, we would have had them for years. They aren’t interested. They don’t understand the people that they appeal to. Thus, the clever twist to make them more interesting and appealing. In their minds, at least.

No, I’m saying they didn’t want a copy of the Horde race on the Alliance. Nor a copy of an alliance one on horde.

That’s why void elves were the choice and nightborne the other.

They’re the only two who cross over like that.

So blizzard tweaked void elves. Nightborne already had their differences to night elves.

Ogres are horde right now with no Alliance ogres.

Making them playable won’t have any need to make them interesting.

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I don’t really see how regular Ogres would be considered boring.

You have the big, dumb brutes that can talk in broken English, which is amusing in of itself. You’d also potentially have two-headed customization options, which would be quite the innovation in MMO’s in general, and there would be quite a bit of positive hype that occurs. To mess with any of that would likely just end up shooting them in the foot.

As for the devs not being interested, I don’t know about that one. Ogres were considered for playable status multiple times, so it isn’t as if they have any disdain towards them. Sure, something ended up holding them back, but I don’t see it as something that makes them a lost cause. Granted, it is frustrating to see the Horde Ogre clans neglected.

Just how I personally see if, of course. Obviously, I don’t know what the general dev thought on playable Horde Ogres are, but I don’t see the devs as “not interested” in them. Especially since Ogres have been requested since Vanilla.

Dream big, Ogre fans! :cut_of_meat::japanese_ogre:

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I wouldn’t be so sure of that.

And no need to sell me on the concept. Again, I’ve been pushing for Ogres since beta (honestly, I wanted them instead of Undead and still do). I see the appeal. But given the amount of times they’ve been “considered,” we always have to conclude that there is a reason they are continually passed on.

One reason they overtly gave was the design of the female Ogre - they couldn’t figure out how to do a female-human-in-cosplay version of the race like they did for every other race, and were too cowardly to actually design a more monstrous female version (who I would love to be uglier, fatter, and flat out bigger than males). Given recent revelations, this particular bias makes a lot more sense in context.

Look at how they’ve distanced the Horde from its roots. Trolls and Orcs killed off with no one stepping in to fill their shoes (or lack thereof). Hulking heroes of multiple wars acting like damsels in distress. Meanwhile, we’re led by the Ranger-General of a former Alliance nation who is currently ruling the functionally Human fallen Alliance kingdom. They have the Horde players rescuing and being rescued by Alliance leaders. They even introduced more Alliance knock off Elves to integrate. They completely asspull the sister of Arthas Menethil into a position of Horde leadership.

The Ogres are emblematic of a Horde that the modern developers have no affection for.

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Ogres would be a great addition for the storytellers in the RP community! While I myself wouldn’t roll one, I’d welcome them into my guild if i ever joined the game again.

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I seem to recall something of this nature this being mentioned in the previous Ogre megathread. I believe this came from a video interview (taken in 2018) with John Staats, who I think helped build a lot of Vanilla’s dungeons & raids, about races considered for the base roster at launch. I’ll go ahead and comment on it since I’m bringing it up, which is directed just as me generally stating my thoughts as opposed to being argumentative.

Timestamp regarding Ogres is at the 1 hour, 10 minute, 8 second mark if it doesn’t automatically take you there:

From Wowpedia’s Ogre page:

“Ogres were not planned to be a playable race in classic World of Warcraft because the developers couldn’t figure out how to make female ogres an attractive option for players. Johnathan Staats has stated “We […] wanted our female players to play, like, the character that they wanted to play, and we just didn’t know how” and has mentioned that “weird things” arise when trying to make male and female options for every race, citing the example of female tauren not having udders.”

Note that this was specifically Classic being planned out that was talked about. I also seem to recall there being talk that female Ogres allegedly were a reason why they changed their mind on Ogres during Cataclysm, though I haven’t found an actual source for that particular argument.

I recall commenting on this before in the previous Ogre megathread, but I found the idea of not being able to find “what female players want” to be a bit of an asinine excuse. What a player in general, regardless of their sex, is a wide variety, and having multiple options in a fantasy MMO is a good thing to be able to reach out to players of different types. You can’t just make every race into something everyone would want to play as. Different players have different tastes.

I’m sure there are female players out there who don’t want to be a pretty barbie doll, but instead would like to play as something savage and monstrous. Is this a high number? Likely not, but how can you appeal to these players if all your female races are just prettied up races with just small differences?

I honestly feel that female Ogres should be seen as an asset as opposed to a hindrance. I’ve given the example before of bearded female Dwarves in Everquest 1. Yeah, most people would just think they’re ugly and not play them, some would just chuckle at it and move on, and others would either play it as a joke character or make a serious character out of it. Regardless, it was something that seemed to add to the world-building of the game and was something memorable about the game. Likely, the same thing would occur with female Ogres in WoW.

Not to mention they’d be part of the marketing hype. “What do female Ogres look like?” would be something that would garner interest in the game and people would look into, regardless of what female Ogres would look like. And maybe some people would be interested in making a female Ogre character, whether it is to be silly or an actual serious character (which can include female players). It certainly wouldn’t be huge numbers, but the idea is having the option there appeals to players who would be interested in that type of character.

This is why I question the search for “what female players want.” Moreso when you already have several other races that could act in a view of “what female players want.” And as I said, you can’t pinpoint what a group of players particularly want in just one race and have that be reflected in all other races. It’s a very narrow point-of-view to have.

Again, this was for Classic’s planning. I can’t say if that is how the current dev team feels, and with recent events likely leading to them considering player request feedback, maybe they’d be more receptive to playable race requests. We won’t really know until the future, but I still think it’s important to keep up the support. Ogre fans have been supporting them at various websites since the game launched, and there had to be something to Ogres if they were considered several times during the game’s lifespan, even if Blizzard didn’t go for it each time.

I’m hoping by now, Blizzard would be more open to feedback. While I would expect female Ogres to be monstrous and savage, I don’t expect them to be on the level of Therazane. It shouldn’t be an impossibility, and honestly would just add more to the game in terms of options.

Thus one of several reasons I keep going with my megathreads. Not a guarantee we’ll see playable Horde Ogres, but having something is better than nothing. All we can really do at this point is just see what happens, which can be awhile to see if anything does come of our feedback. Expectations are tempered, but hope blooms and slumbers as time goes on.

Dream big, Ogre fans! :cut_of_meat::japanese_ogre:

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You might be surprised by this, as well. At least anecdotally, I know more women who play male characters because they have more “personality” than the female offerings - an issue not exclusive to WoW.

A good example is taking a look at the thumbnails of the League of Legends roster. You can tell a lot about the male heroes from their faces alone and you can certainly tell them apart… the female characters, though? Virtually identical across the board (with a few notable exceptions).

In short, males are allowed to be divergent. To be big, small, bulky or lithe, handsome or ugly. They’re allowed to be people. Female characters, especially in MMOs, take that unique design from the male and simply apply it to the most boring, typical, human standards of beauty instead of being unique themselves.

Again, this is where I would hope Ogres can be different. I made a few threads on the old forums on the topic - I wonder if I could find them. In short, I want them to be bigger, fatter, stronger, and uglier than any Ogre male we’ve seen. Bigger than Tauren, even. Make them a spectacle.

No one wants a “hot” Ogre. That’s missing the point.

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