This - THIS is the pingponging we are talking about.
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Eh i mean arthas was about to destroy the world, desperate times call for desperate measures.
puppy people, she needed to use the blight on gilneas too cuz garrosh order to save casualties. After all garrosh ordered the invasion to weaken the other members of the horde. So you’re welcome, because the forsaken also helped depose garrosh! You know? the one who ordered it in the first place? Yea… you member… lol.
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Doesn’t make it any less treasonous and a direct disobeying of orders. Its’ less the tactic she’s using and more so the part where she disobeys a direct order from her Warchief.
So when people whine about Saurfang disobeying her in BfA, it’s pretty darn hypocritical considering how she also has a history of not following orders.
Did you not play Warrior? Odyn was the leader of the Valarjar (aka the Warrior OH), a powerful ally against the Legion that consisted of titan keepers like Thorim, Titanforged, and great warriors. Whether or not you like him personally, his force was substantial and a very valuable asset.
No he wasn’t. He gave it to us, Stovall was a sore loser about it, and we killed him to keep the Aegis. It was in no way indicated that Odyn was willing to give the Aegis to a guy literally bristling with the power of the Legion. It only may have come across that way due to Odyns own terrible personality.
Well, there’s a time and a place for everything, and that was neither the time nor place to work on that project. That was the time to prove to the Horde that she is worthy to lead them.
So when people complain about Greymane’s “unprovoked” attack, not only had she destroyed his home, killed his son, and slaughtered his people. But then in the midst of a Legion invasion, instead y’know, battling the Legion, she goes off to steal power from one of our many allies instead. People can claim that Odyn can make more Eyirs’, but that doesn’t make Sylvanas’s actions any less of a hinderance to Odyn’s, and by extension, the forces of Azeroth.
It also shows an unwillingness to cooperate with the new authority.
And that excuses human experimentation? Heck, they never even used the blight on the SC.
I thought we were remembering Sylvanas from before BtS and BfA?
Then it’s pretty ironic how Ms. “desperate measures” is now trying to destroy the world in the exact same capacity that Arthas was.
No, Garrosh’s orders was to secure Gilneas as a means of having a port within the EK and strictly prohibited the use of blight.
Thanks.
But that doesn’t make her any less treasonous, I’m afraid.
That’s entirely ignoring the part of the “disobeying” coming from his skewing, ever-shifting sense of honour.
Even if he helped, the lad is far from being a good guy. I point to you to a SPriest coming out and asking him about Loken’s Final Words.
His inactivity when Skovald bursted in spoke for itself.
Whatever you wish, it still is unprovoked, since he had no idea why she was there when he attacked. The war related to him and his kingdom had ended in MoP.
Once again, he “allied” with us 'cause we proved ourselves “worthy”, which his sense of “worthy” is as skewed as Saurfang’s sense of “honour”. I refered to you to his inactivity in the fight against Skovald.
Unbelievable that her prejudices, as an High Elf in life, towards trolls, have carried over!
The SC were a huge hinderance, a huge thorn in their side. And you complacently ignore that “the end justify the means” is a Forsaken’s theme. Granted, it opens up to dubious acts, which is why it makes them interesting in the first place, in a game overfilled with lawful good overdrive stupidity. Moreso, if it bothers you that much, should I point out to the numerous quests throughout the game that represents animal abuse? That’s pretty much evil in itself too. Or the ones where we are sent out to extermine wildlifes, 'cause god forbid, we dare establish on their terriotires and disrupt their way of life?
They did at least once, in WotLK, at Venomspite.
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Are you a cultist now?
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Okay then pretty much the entirety of the Legion pre-patch events where Sylvanas is shown obeying Vol’jin, trying to save him (and the Horde), genuinely sullen when he dies, and then vows the Horde will avenge him. Which ofc was never shown in game but we do know that she had his glaives put on display in Grommash Hold.
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Okay, that first clip is kind of hilarious and endears me to her more, though. That’s the kind of Forsaken humor I’m here for. Garrosh calls Sylvanas a b***h because she 100% is. “Oh yes Warchief, I’ll be good. (literal seconds later) Psst, Igor, kick some blankets over the Plague canisters we brought, k?”
My only problem with her recent characterization is that her evil has 1. Become central to her character in a really stupid and OOC way, i.e. much less sneaky, and 2. It doesn’t benefit the Horde anymore, which was the whole purpose of her evil beforehand. She was willing to do evil things either in service of the Forsaken or in service of the Horde. Even enslaving Eyir would have been beneficial to the Forsaken as well. I think many of her actions in BfA would have also been acceptable within a different context for the war (AKA, had the insanity and rage-inducing idiocy of Teldrassil never happened, or at least if it had happened AFTER the Alliance struck first at Lordaeron as retaliation.)
That’s not that bad, though. Her inner dialogue regarding Vol’jin just before his death was far more respectful of him, so there’s a good chance over Draenor she grew to accept his leadership. Her distrust of trolls is fairly on-brand for high elves as a whole, as is her disobedience and selectively ignoring orders from her Warchief. She did it with Thrall and Garrosh. Hell, you didn’t even bold her compliment for Vol’jin. She accepts that he did behave as a leader and did something she was impressed by; that’s pretty high praise for someone like Sylvanas.
I think this is a subjective thing, Pyro. You don’t have to like Sylvanas. I hope my response has helped show you how the same dialogue or event can be taken different ways depending on how much sass and evil a given person may care for.
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You no longer need to bear the weight of your crown.
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Honestly I had to do a double take! Saw the avatar and my brain processed it as DK but the pink text caught my eye so I was wondering how you became a DK.
It was a confusing couple seconds until I realized the obvious.
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Cuz that’s not the part most Saurfang haters have with him, it’s refusing to kill Malf, thus disobeying Sylvanas that people love to fire on him for.
Hmm, he kills a shadow priest (potential void worshipper) wielding Xala’tath (an Old god dagger) for asking about Loken (corrupted by the old gods and is partially responsible for perma-binding him to the HoV).
I wonder why he’d react so negatively to such an upstanding person?
Regardless, the point being; he IS our ally whether or not the guy himself is a nice or not.
I stand corrected.
Whether he knew about what she was doing or not is no longer important as it turns out his instincts were correct and she was indeed up to no good.
The war related to him and his kingdom never ended, cuz he never got his kingdom back or any other form of reparations.
Well that and also the fact that it’s literally his job to protect the planet, being the prime designate and all that.
Wdym prejudice? Where is it ever stated or implied that she harbors animosity towards troll-kind?
I’m sure Sylvanas “We need to ally with the Zandalari” Windrunner, has long since discarded her prejudices against the trolls.
Idk, Circle of Life? When those animals die, they become the air we breathe, the earth we walk on, and whatever.
Ok, so aside from saving the Horde leadership, literally nothing of substance that would effect ones’ perception of the character. Obeying a good warchief, feeling bad about his death, vowing to avenge him(and then failing to follow up on that promise) and putting his glaives on display in Grommash hold after everything is said and done, are not considered acts that are particularly outstanding.
You know me, normally I’d argue that blowing a horn is nothing special and try to invalidate her achievements. But instead, Im just here to confirm that BfA Sylvanas is seemingly no different than the Sylvanas of old with the only difference being that she no longer works in the shadows and with the world seeing her for what she is.
Well exactly, that’s precisely why she is so ill suited as Warchief. Because her “subtly evil” persona isn’t so subtle anymore if she’s literally the face of the faction. As for your 2nd point, that’s exactly right, it wasn’t going to be long before what could be considered beneficial to the Forsaken is not beneficial to the Horde. Like the theoretical attack on SW as she had planned in BtS. Sure, more Forsaken is good…for the Forsaken, but what does the rest of the Horde get? Enslaving Eyir could’ve been good for the Forsaken but, again, what does the rest of the Horde get out of it?
I’m of strong belief that the order of events doesn’t matter, because then why would she come after the NE’s if it was primarily a human centric assault? Also it would still be mass murder as opposed to the majority of the civilians were successfully evacuated from Undercity. Also it would still frame Sylvanas as a cackling super villain and the Horde as villains, since the incident is drastically worse than the Alliance attacking Lordaeron.(unless they racked up a bunch of civilian casualties) Also, the whole distrust between Sylvanas and the rest of the Horde since Wrathgate remains unaddressed. Also…
You see the problem here? This story was a half-baked mess before it was ever even conceived.
A crucial development that was completely glossed over along with everything else that would be mandatory to making her a believable warchief in any conceivable narrative.
If only we actually ever got to see that synergy between the two…
I’d bring up her relationship with Vol’jin more if she actually had a relationship with him that we could see in-game. Even in out-of-game media depicts their interactions as relatively brief, not really indicating any sort of particularly special facets about their relationship aside from Sylvanas having apparently respected him.
Oh, I totally agree. This whole thing is SUPER subjective, I can only speak for myself and other likeminded people. While I personally find her sass and evil, vexing and bothersome, there are others think it’s charming and interesting.
It is what it is.
Your point was that Sylvanas didn’t like Vol’jin or was not going to accept him as Warchief, yes? I was refuting that.
Also “failing to follow up on that”. It was followed up on, just not in game. But it’s not like any of the Horde leaders got much screen time in Legion. All the dead leader pathos went to Varian after of 7.0.
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I’ll agree with you, she would have required a little adjustment character-wise to make her position as Warchief work in her favor. Sadly, the writers did not want the Warchief Sylvanas we got in the BfA trailer.
Ehh, this leads to a different argument as to whether or not the Horde would benefit (both long-term and short-term) from the destruction of the Alliance, I don’t feel like opening that can of worms.
Regardless of your feelings on Sylvanas, the Forsaken have been proven to care about the Horde in some fashion or the other. I mean, Bannerbae and all the former Sylvanas loyalists who turn their backs on her because she turned her back on the Horde proves that.
Now, assuming you agree that at least a majority of Forsaken in the Horde care about the Horde and want to see it succeed, does that question make sense? Would you say “Sure, having resources and livable land benefits the orcs, but what does the rest of the Horde get out of it?” “Sure, saving the tauren benefits the tauren, but what does the rest of the Horde get out of it?” The Forsaken are a member of the Horde, Sylvanas is irrelevant in that equation. The Horde would therefore benefit from one of its central races being bolstered.
I didn’t mention those details originally, but yes, I had many other smaller alterations in mind to make the events somewhat more morally equal (wrt civilian casualties and overall damage), I just figured that would make the parenthetical comment longer than it needed to be. My posts are already long enough because I spend so much effort trying to cover my butt for all the academic-level picking apart we on SF (me proudly included) love to do.
You can say that again.
We’re in agreement here.
I try to take a more lighthearted stance when it comes to most Warcraft lore. It’s become increasingly difficult as the WoW writers are pushing this ridiculous level of self-seriousness in every plot development. I never wanted Sylvanas’s evil to actually be taken seriously! Any more seriously than Blizzard has treated most death and war in the past!
Evil Sylvanas I liked: “Oh yes, let’s certainly Plague these dirty worgen, duh. Garry can suck my shorts!” This Sylvanas supports a WWE-style rivalry between the factions which is more interested in the swords-and-sorcery spectacle over wallowing in the tragedy of realistically-depicted war. This story doesn’t care about realism or SUPER SERIOUS STORYTELLING, it wants the players to have fun. I want the players to have fun!
:^(
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You always articulate my thoughts on Sylvanas so much better than I could. You also do it in a much nicer manner than I tend to. 1 like is not enough.
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I wasn’t always this way. I been fighting hard on these SF streets for close to 3 years now. I think the amount of nerd raging I’ve engaged in has softened my harder edges to the mindsets of others, allowing me to see more readily from their perspective and reformat my arguments to appeal to their logic and come at the topic from where they’re at rather than from where I’m at, or at least agree to disagree because in the absence of canon confirmation a lot of this is subjective anyway. Like a little stone in a riverbed.
…Yeah, didn’t always do that. flashbacks
Gahh! turn it off! …I mean, kind of is an entertaining read, though. Looking back on it. I end up warming up to the people I nerdrage with in SF about 60% of the time. (the other 40% include a certain two orcs and a nelf whom will go nameless. Hisssss.)
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It seems you need a refresh of the starting moment of Alliance’s Stormheim (added the but of dialogue just before, to avoid any kind of confusion. Didn’t put the first few lines since it’s only describing Stormheim as home of a vrykul clan and we can find the Aegis there.) :
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Our official orders are to escort you to Stormheim and ensure your success on this trial.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Unofficially, however, we have another mission…
Sky Admiral Rogers says: The 7th Legion. The toughest men and women the Alliance have to offer. They, too, have come on direct orders from the king.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Three days ago, the Forsaken fleet set sail from Durotar, heading straight for the Broken Isles. We think Sylvanas Windrunner herself may be among them.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: We are to track them from a safe distance. We may engage, but only if the situation demands.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: I strongly suspect the situation will demand it.
Genn Greymane says: It had better.
Genn Greymane says: I am not in the habit of tracking prey unless I intend on killing it.
Sky Admiral Rogers says: Preparations are nearly complete. Please make yourselves comfortable.
Care to point any sign of instincts? Or gut feeling? Can’t? Thought so.
Oh, I don’t know. Her being an High Elf in life, maybe, and the “shared” history between her kind and trolls.
Sorry. I missed this pearl. First : her disobeying Garrosh is bad, even tho the one you refer to disobeyed him later on. And another Warchief afterward. Gotta choose. Disobeying him before MoP is bad, but after is good? Second, you are misunderstanding why people hates that part. it’s not disobeying that pisses folks off, but how that suddenly his “honour” matters.
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Well instinct as well as solid proof thanks to the Alliance PC finding and bringing the Captains log of the Queens’ Reprisal and bringing it to Greyfang enclave. This is what’s written in the journal:
<… ing Legion repelled from Orgrim…>
<… on the Broken Shore. I have every faith that my crew will bring glory to the forsaken and make the Dark Lady proud. We’re half a da…>
<… barely survived. Queen Sylvanas has ordered the fleet to make way for Stormheim. I have a staff meeting with Admiral Harker on the Windrunner in an h…>
<… teresting to be certain. The queen is going to steal the very power of the v… or herself!>
<… separated by a massive storm. I’ve given the order to batten down the hatches and weather it. There’s no sign of the fleet. Once the… [illegible text] … we’ll catch up and rendezvous at the…>
Ok thats a fair point, but it’s still never been indicated since she died and became undead whether or not she retains those prejudices. She didn’t seem to have a problem joining a Horde with Troll members or coming up with the idea to partner up with the Zandalari.
I’d agree there if it was brought up in the starting quest. It’d give credence to your point. However, since it ain’t mentionned in the text, or quest text the logical thing would be to assume (even tho he’d be extremely weird gameplay wise) that the note hasn’t reach Greymane at the moment of his departure or hasn’t been found yet. Granted, there’s still a vagueness on what happens and when it happens in Legion. however, it is fair to assume that the note is found after the event of Stormheim, since the Forsaken’s fleet leave Durotar to head for Stormheim, which this boat might have been a part of.
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We have gained a mighty ally this day.
Suffer well brother.
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