The Spelladin - new Retribution meta for Classic

[Theloras-llane (Theloras)]

@Machomadness-lethon

I spent at least 30 to 40 hours a week grouped with those people and I hated every single one of them. For me it was a means to an end and nothing more.

welcome to my world friend

World of Warcraft Forums

@Sereik-proudmoore

There is a key point people seem to miss when trying to make ret paladins a viable DPS option. The reliance on Seal of the Crusader is too heavy, and no guild is going to give you one of the 16 debuff slots to have it up.

come Naxxramas you will want Judgement of the Crusader up as Stratholme Holy Water scales at 100% of spell damage which means that JotC adds its full amount by 100%

since holy water is farmable in stratholme (go figure) everyone should be throwing them each and every cd

@Cabernét-destromath

TBH I want to see something like:

• PreBiS Spelladin in MC
• PreBiS Spelladin in Ony
• MC Spelladin in BWL
• ZG Spelladin in BWL
• BWL Spelladin in BWL

come join our discord then - https://discord.gg/AE3AwRQ

DexterBravo made SPELLADIN BiS lists for each of the release phases that Classic will run through:

Hammer [Dexterbravo]04/03/2019
This is work in progress - likely something will be wrong. It will be complete before Classic release
Spelladin gear is heavily contextual compared to what other gear you have, keep that in mind

Manual Crowd Pummeler (MCP) is BIS, use this on bosses. And when you don’t (on trash etc), refer to the weapon section

Phase 1: Spelladin [PreBIS]
https://www.classicwowtools.live/character/d12cca6a80be4965f706a27dd61b6ee026d004e0879979e4d22bb9e49460b56c95f1a0e1f1a064f68afe803167296745587ef643e61c70abce7cb7bbe6c2fd11902a476185814b0e627f92447306643bebf52c99fa1c5e907c9620a1821c760c9c5c13c10c5641e349fa6bd4d23ed1209ce78158b17a8cfb090fb642e5f7a7d76707892575e01041252b0dc5418c9274e70e68bedce2fda1a9595ae4e201dcd6252f8dd8aa65
If you go Flurry Axe, use Spirit of Aquementas in off-hand
You could use Lionheart Helm until you get Judgement Crown
If Crimson Felt Hat, Barrage Girdle and Burial Shawl is available, those are pre-bis

Phase 1: MC+Ony
https://www.classicwowtools.live/character/d12cca6a80be4965f706a27dd6186eec2ad004e0879979e4d22bb9e49460b56c95f1adedf1a564f68afe80316d296041587ef643e61c73aac879b7bbe6c2fd11902a476185814b0e627f924275036f3bebf52c99fa1c5e907c9620a1821c76069c5e1ec10c5641e349fa61d5d638d1209ce78158b17188fb0d0fb642e5f7a7d76707892575e01041252b07c4408c9274e70e68bedce2fda1a9595ae4e201dcd6252f8dd8aa65
If they are easily available, true BIS contains: Sapphiron Drape and Robe Of Volatile Power – but you can replace them come DM for pure dps

Phase 2: (+PVP)
https://tinyurl.com/Spelladin-P2-BIS
Take Waterspout Boots if you can’t get Snowblind Shoes.
If you only go to rank 8, then take R7 boots and R8 Chest.

Rank 13 gear isn’t worth if, at all, unless you were going to get it for PVP anyways.
Less than 1 dps increase, since you need to wear the full set for the spell dmg bonus.

Notes:
2x Ring of Spell Power and Judgement Crown, will last you from phase 1 until phase 5.
Choker of the Fire Lord also from phase 1 is BIS forever, so aim for that

Hammer [Dexterbravo]04/03/2019
Phase 3: BWL+AV
https://www.classicwowtools.live/character/d12cca6a80be4965f706a27dd6186eec2ad004e0879979e4d720b9e19460b56c95f1adedf1a564f68afe803162216645587ef643e61c77aacf7db7bbe6c2fd119522456585814b0e627f924c76036f3bebf52c99fa1b5f97799620a1821c7609945f13c10c5641e349fa61d5d638d1209ce78158b17188fb0d0fb642e5f7a7d367018e2575e01041252b06cf468f9274e70e68bedfebfba8c0282d8ee41ac1d6242d8fbcaa14c8abb2426ba4a3ba657d028d
Master Dragonslayer’s Orb if AV isn’t out.
Use Scrolls first, then go back to your Talisman, depending on the fight/trash etc.

Phase 5: AQ40
https://www.classicwowtools.live/character/d12cca6a80be4965f706a27dd51f64e128d004e0879979e7d328b5e39460b56c95f1adedf1a564f68afe8032662f6047587ef643e61f70a0c37fb7bbe6c2fd129228496185814b0e627f91477207663bebf52c99f91c559a769620a1821c750e9e5212c10c5641e349f969d3d236d1209ce78158b27988f60a0fb642e5f7a4d46f0c892575e01041252b06cf468f9274e70e68bedfebfba8c0282d8ee41ac1d6242d8fbcaa14c8abb24268aca5b2677d738bb459cf4960f4f2ca36a8f5
For max DPS on short fights you could get Dark Storm Gauntlets, but your uptime will suffer tremendously comparetively.
(T2 and T2.5+misc is basically the same, so probably wont even need most of this)

Phase 6: Naxx
https://www.classicwowtools.live/character/d12cca6a80be4965f706a27dd51f64e128d004e0879979e7d328b5e39460b56c95f1adedf1a564f68afe8032672e6541587ef643e61f70a0c37fb7bbe6c2fd129228496185814b0e627f91477207663bebf52c99f91c559a769620a1821c750e9e5212c10c5641e349f969d3d236d1209ce78158b27988f60a0fb642e5f7a4d46f0c892575e0104125280ccc468a9274e70e68bedce9f8a7c3282d8ee41ac1d6242d8fbcaa14c8abb24268aea0bf697d738bb459cf4960f4f2ca36a8f5
If you don’t have Eyestalk Waist Cord at this point I’d take Belt Of The Grand Crusader.

T2 is probably both realistic and actual BIS forever, gonna make sure and then ill update the late phase lists
Hammer [Dexterbravo]04/04/2019
Best weapons: (in general)
Destiny/Flurry Axe < Blade of Hanna < Ironfoe < Ashbringer < Hungering Cold < Thunderfury < MCP
Considering Ironfoe is BIS (not by a huge margin) when not using MCP, until Naxx, it might be worth the farming.
If you use Flask then Flurry Axe will be better than Hanna. In general the more spellpower you get, the faster you want your weapon to be.

If Ironfoe has 2 PPM it’s better than Thunderfury. If Fiery Retributor scales as we wish (but don’t expect) it’s better than MCP.
Flurry Axe becomes better than Hanna with P5 BIS gear even without flask.

[Zonkabonk-blackrock]

I have a really hard time believing Ironfoe is going to have that high a proc rate. What is this based on?

[Theloras-llane (Theloras)]

My question was “Since a ret Paladin has to be doing DPS all of the time to do “respectable” damage when will they have time to provide any utility?” I’m well aware of the utility of a Paladin, but if a Paladin is trying to earn their raid spot how will they have time to do their rotation, look at decursive, and look at healer health for a DI?

8/8 Tier 1 AoE Group heals in either the Main Tank or Warlock group on Loatheb:

• 3 pieces: [Increases the chance of triggering a Judgement of Light heal by 10%.]
• 8 pieces: [Gives the Paladin a chance on every melee hit to heal your party for 189 to 211.]
  https://classic.wowhead.com/item-set=208/lawbringer-armor

due to the boss fight mechanics, you eat a 1min silence after you cast a heal or cleanse on that fight

whereas I can literally top the healing meters without casting a single heal in that encounter from wearing 8/8 Tier 1 and putting up Judgement of Light - this can also be done in MC on Magmadar, BWL on Vael, AQ40 on Viscidus/Huhuran and likewise on another Naxx boss with Thaddius

TLDR - on boss fights with high raid wide damage, having a Ret Paladin wearing 8/8 Tier 1 while swinging Nightfall is lulz to say the least

I have a really hard time believing Ironfoe is going to have that high a proc rate. What is this based on?

some insider information and reddit posts/screenshots - I agree with you that it would OP AF but I’m at least willing to entertain the possibility

until then, we are all taking it with a grain of slat, hence we are still advocating MCP for SPELLADIN until we know for certain

[Akaidian-earthen-ring (Akaidian)]

What I need is the game to give me a class that fits me (which they did in WOTLK). My mindset is such that I know ret is garbage and I don’t want anyone of the serious and competitive people I’ll be playing with to give me a pass because I don’t want to have to give them a pass (and being a hypocrite is out of the question).

I also really don’t want to reroll warrior. What I really want is a rebalanced classic that strictly does numbers tuning on skills. I know that’s not happening, so I’m just biting the bullet and raiding as the next best thing: a warrior.

[Theloras-llane (Theloras)]

What I need is the game to give me a class that fits me (which they did in WOTLK). My mindset is such that I know ret is garbage and I don’t want anyone of the serious and competitive people I’ll be playing with to give me a pass because I don’t want to have to give them a pass (and being a hypocrite is out of the question).

i think what you want is to play a 60 Ret Paladin TWINK on a LK private server - that will be the only way to make yourself happy imho

[Akaidian-earthen-ring (Akaidian)]

I agree, but forcefully twinking on a server with a higher level cap won’t have the same access to the number of players looking to do content as when that content is the actual current stuff, so I’m stuck. I’m left with only ever getting 90% of the game I want, which is frustrating. They shouldn’t have heavily changed ret from beta to launch in vanilla and been more intelligent with their designs from the get-go.

[Theloras-llane (Theloras)]

I agree, but forcefully twinking on a server with a higher level cap won’t have the same access to the number of players looking to do content as when that content is the actual current stuff, so I’m stuck.

yep that’s the rub - I myself twinked out level 60 during LK and twinked level 70 during cata since i hated the end game stuff so much

was some of the best times I ever had - my friends and I had a twink guild and we ran MC/BWL/AQ40 every week as we dual boxed with our max toons and brought our 60s along for gear

was a ton of fun until blizzard nerfed legacy accounts and automatically flagged them for TBC which meant that we had to join the twink bg queues and not the regular levelling queues for bgs

= sad in the pants

[Purjery-muradin (Purjery)]

• 3 pieces: [Increases the chance of triggering a Judgement of Light heal by 10%.]
• 8 pieces: [Gives the Paladin a chance on every melee hit to heal your party for 189 to 211

First off that requires a full set of T1 which take a long time to get. Secondly a chance to heal 189 to 211 doesn’t sound like much at all and doesn’t sound like enough healing to make any difference even with an additional 61hp from JoL.

TLDR - on boss fights with high raid wide damage, having a Ret Paladin wearing 8/8 Tier 1 while swinging Nightfall is lulz to say the least

Unless it’s every hit, it’s increased substantially with +healing, and the Paladin has a very fast weapon it’s not going to heal enough to make a difference. And again that has nothing to do with my post you quoted.

[Theloras-llane (Theloras)]

First off that requires a full set of T1 which take a long time to get. Secondly a chance to heal 189 to 211 doesn’t sound like much at all and doesn’t sound like enough healing to make any difference even with an additional 61hp from JoL.

Theloras:

TLDR - on boss fights with high raid wide damage, having a Ret Paladin wearing 8/8 Tier 1 while swinging Nightfall is lulz to say the least

Unless it’s every hit, it’s increased substantially with +healing, and the Paladin has a very fast weapon it’s not going to heal enough to make a difference. And again that has nothing to do with my post you quoted.

you really need to refresh your Vanilla/Classic boss mechanic knowledge before making statements like these

Wearing 8/8 Tier 1 on Thaddius
Efficient Heal(970.2k)
#1 Sarkha 176415(738/s) 18.2%
#2 Theoloras 112078(469/s) 11.6%
#3 Rotpotato 108104(452/s) 11.1%
#4 Morbelhazmal 88384(370/s) 9.1%
#5 Pocketholy 77673(325/s) 8.0%
#6 Nolamik 72680(304/s) 7.5%
#7 Nadey 65100(272/s) 6.7%
#8 Salemko 64354(269/s) 6.6%
#9 Rafles 60091(251/s) 6.2%
#10 Drunkpenguin 54221(227/s) 5.6%
#11 Overhealer 52318(219/s) 5.4%
Overheal(336.4k)
#1 Theoloras 70377 (294/s) 20.9%
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=94705&Fight=5
^^^without casting a single castable heal and still doing 923 DPS^^^

Efficient Heal(1296.6k)
#1 Sarkha 195108(687/s) 15.0%
#2 Rotpotato 162547(572/s) 12.5%
#3 Theoloras 138755(489/s) 10.7%
#4 Debye 130230(459/s) 10.0%
#5 Rafles 103239(364/s) 8.0%
#6 Nuerock 90713(319/s) 7.0%
#7 Salemko 90203(318/s) 7.0%
#8 Grethilda 80897(285/s) 6.2%
#9 Morbelhazmal 79355(279/s) 6.1%
#10 Drunkpenguin 75633(266/s) 5.8%
#11 Nadey 54394(192/s) 4.2%
Overheal(271.9k)
#1 Theoloras 75425 (266/s) 27.7%
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/FightOverview.aspx?Raid=96949&Fight=3
^^^again not a single castable heal but this time doing 954 DPS^^^
both of those fights while swinging Nightfall and boosting all caster DPS in the process

those realmplayers links don’t seem to be working anymore so here is the difference between a Paladin wearing 8/8 Tier 1 while also putting up Judgement of Light and a Paladin just wearing 8/8 Tier 1 on Loatheb from one of my last raids on Lightbringer last summer and then compared to all the other healers casting their heals once per minute:

502108 (1764.7/s)
1 Seak (121510) 427.1/s (60015) 210.9/s 29.9%
2 Theoloras (42038) 147.7/s (13466) 47.3/s 9.1%
3 Jantine (27537) 96.8/s (324) 1.1/s 4.6%
4 Serenathus (20875) 73.4/s (0) 0/s 3.4%
5 Korryos (19407) 68.2/s (2230) 7.8/s 3.6%
6 Justiciana (18896) 66.4/s (2238) 7.9/s 3.5%
7 Peinis (16195) 56.9/s (1311) 4.6/s 2.9%
8 Sessy (13517) 47.5/s (0) 0/s 2.2%
9 Sadris (13202) 46.4/s (1781) 6.3/s 2.5%
10 Kalsha (12328) 43.3/s (1308) 4.6/s 2.2%
https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/Default.aspx?id=12431&exp=0

TLDR - both Seak and I wore 8/8 Tier 1 but he put up JoL and did nearly 30% of the total efficient healing on that fight compared to me doing over 9% from just 8/8 Tier 1 aoe group heals - but again this is while swinging Nightfall to boost magic damage against the boss with a 40% debuff uptime from using SoR/JoR

[Aldenel-emerald-dream]

Calm your zealotry for one moment. He’s asking how the set bonus works in terms of proc chance/Scalability. I can’t even look at the logs.

[Theloras-llane (Theloras)]

yes i know - hence why I added an edit to my post for a Loatheb fight last summer on Lightbringer before the server died

502108 (1764.7/s)
1 Seak (121510) 427.1/s (60015) 210.9/s 29.9%
2 Theoloras (42038) 147.7/s (13466) 47.3/s 9.1%
3 Jantine (27537) 96.8/s (324) 1.1/s 4.6%
4 Serenathus (20875) 73.4/s (0) 0/s 3.4%
5 Korryos (19407) 68.2/s (2230) 7.8/s 3.6%
6 Justiciana (18896) 66.4/s (2238) 7.9/s 3.5%
7 Peinis (16195) 56.9/s (1311) 4.6/s 2.9%
8 Sessy (13517) 47.5/s (0) 0/s 2.2%
9 Sadris (13202) 46.4/s (1781) 6.3/s 2.5%
10 Kalsha (12328) 43.3/s (1308) 4.6/s 2.2%
https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/Default.aspx?id=12431&exp=0

[Aldenel-emerald-dream]

@Theloras-llane

yes i know - hence why I added an edit to my post for a Loatheb fight last summer on Lightbringer before the server died

Man, looking at the legacyplayers.com logs makes me appreciate Warcraftlogs.

@Purjery-muradin

Secondly a chance to heal 189 to 211 doesn’t sound like much at all and doesn’t sound like enough healing to make any difference even with an additional 61hp from JoL.

The 8/8 bonus seems to have a 68% proc chance. 374 swings vs 257 procs which totaled to 40k healing. So that’s an average of 155ish per heal, per person in a group.

I can only see this fight thoughhttps://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/Default.aspx?id=12431&exp=0

[Chopchopexe-bonechewer]

You really don’t need to be a theorycrafter to understand that the point of a Spelladin is to get as many opportunities to deal MAGIC damage. Since you’re pumping everything into increasing your +mdamage, you are aiming to get as many swings to proc Seal of the Righteousness and MCP solves this problem by literally increasing your possible damage by +50%. The damage from the mace doesn’t matter in comparison to instead convert most of your damage to HOLY damage which while can get regular resisted, has no partial resistance mechanic and gets around armor.

[Kargar-blackrock]

This is another one that I thought was pretty well established. I’m fairly certain multiple people have recorded Iron Foe as having a 10% proc rate. Back in Classic.

[Zonkabonk-blackrock]

Yeah on pservers. I’d like to see a vanilla source

It definitely isn’t well established because I’ve been looking on and off for years regarding ironfoe. Anyway I’m not debating it I just want to know

[Skjaldbjorn-lightbringer (Skjaldbjorn)]

next you’re gonna look at overall raid parses when he was only there for 4 bosses

No, that is why I looked at each individual encounter and made my comments on them. Unlike you I don’t cherry pick encounters without giving context. Not once did I mention the overall raid log, I talked about the one he was present for.

all dps classes receive buffs - this was a dps ceiling test to see how the spec would perform at high levels

And nobody cares what a class does once the game is beaten. You keep trying to showcase how great this spec is, but you only ever harp on bis. Bis is ~1.5 from launch.

literally no one cares at all about the minor bosses before Thaddius activates

It’s part of the fight. They still have to be killed.

um yea cuz it’s NAXXRAMAS

Pretty sure that is what I said. The point is that you will spend ~1.5 years fighting other bosses before Naxx is even released.

Personally I’m not even arguing with you, for the past year I have been debating with you here you have shown a complete lack of reasoning. I’m simply here to be the voice of reason for those who truly do not know better and are considering rolling a class for the purpose of dpsing in raids when they will most likely not happen. Even on pservers it is rare, and even the spellingbee is only being toyed with by guilds like above that have beat the game and have nothing better to do.

[Kuljek-baelgun]

If you open the total report he gave you it shows he did less total damage then the tank, it was also below the tank by 110 dps.

Poor guy can’t even break 350.

https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/?id=12431&exp=0&upl=19645

[Aldenel-emerald-dream]

TBF he’s using T1 in that fight. I think, from the Healing Circle procs.

Edit: Narator: He actually wasn’t. Aldenel was just looking at the wrong logs.

[Kuljek-baelgun]

TBF 330 even in T1 at Naxx is considered seriously subpar. Also wow that totally broken 0.8 healing average over the entire instance really helps…note the sarcasm.

They probably made him wear it because it was the only thing truly useful he could contribute while being present.

By the way if you open the log again, you can actually see the gear he wore on each fight. It was T2.5 5pc. Had a corrupted Ashbringer and still doesn’t break 350 on ST.

[Aldenel-emerald-dream]

You can also see the ‘best’ personal logs

1567	7	DPS	1123.8	1059.6	Thaddius
2768	11	DPS	402.5	394.8	Grobbulus
2650	9	DPS	336.7	311.8	Gluth
3074	9	DPS	58.6	46.3	Heigan the Unclean
1729	2	DPS	496.3	466.2	Maexxna
3009	13	DPS	338.8	314.6	Grand Widow Faerlina
2262	6	DPS	383.2	380.9	Noth the Plaguebringer
2676	10	DPS	393	393	Anub’Rekhan
2640	13	DPS	289.2	273.9	Loatheb
2331	4	DPS	540	489.4	Patchwerk
2872	13	DPS	298.4	298.4	Instructor Razuvious

Regardless of his numbers I’m still interested with how the spec will playstyle will pan out once Classic releases/