The shallowness of Human Lore in Warcraft--Why?

I don’t get it….

Can you elaborate why is that OK?

Genuine question, as it’s the point that has been made for almost the entire of this thread, and it’s been peppered with adjectives such as “problematic” and “racist” for the most of it.

If I’ve interpreted it correctly, Smallioz approach leans on having these noble houses
acting as the remnants/representatives of the “lost kingdoms” (those that were destroyed, etc.).
A way to give their people voice in the factions affairs, now that they’ve become all Stormwind citizens.

And he’s suggested having some of these houses be made up of PoC or people with a particular set of features. Which in essence circles to the idea of these features being naturally associated with the descendants of a particular kingdom.

I picture it something like this:

Which would be like elaborating on the characters that make up the Executive Power structure in Stormwind, while highlighting the fact that it includes a spokesperson from each relevant collective that makes up the current main human hub. And yes, acknowledge while not acting in a segregating way, the distinctiveness of those that involved.

I personally like the idea and feel it’s an interesting way to both elaborate on human lore, and acknowledge the features implemented ingame without “othering” anyone involved.
But I was under the impression others did not.

I’m……conflicted.

While I understand the point you are trying to make here, about reducing the spotlight of the recurrent and one-dimensional heroes, while giving more attention to other “shadier” characters, so as to highlight the fact that not all human protagonist are shiny impeccable paragons….I don’t think the solution is to shift focus from a hero centric story, to a villain centric one.

Don’t know if you understand what i mean.

I think that in order to further the human lore, it would be better if the plot focuses more on themes, culture and societal aspects of the race.
And not as much on a particular set of characters.

I’d even go a step further.

I would make each character a far more notable member of their factions, and make a fully developed plot out of their rivalry and claims.
For starters, make them part of the ruling or executive bodies of each faction by acknowledging their noble status.

And then, for instance, have Alexi demand the Forsaken back up his claim over his portion of the land, using his wealth and resources to influence the Desolate Council to help him out (maybe even try to bribe some of them).
And have Weldon do similarly in Stormwind.

Have pockets of faction conflict out of “realpolitik” instead of hyperbolic and exaggerated acts of war.

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Madeline Roux in shadow’s rising did a great job showing the dissent certain refugee’s had for their current situation(although there are parts of that book i could have done without).

We need more of that showing that the refugee’s and nobles from other nations are unhappy about the current situation and want to go back to their homes. They want their lands back and visit their family graves(if they haven’t been ransacked). This idea that everyone in stormwind is currently happy with the status quo annoys me.

I do also like the idea that different nations have different cultures and that different noble families could be represented by POC. Too much of this story if focused around the wrynn’s and Anduin that there is no counter point to him anymore. Atleast when Varian was around he was a good counter balance to Anduin. We don’t really get that balance anymore.

Anduin just comes across as a sheltered white kid who doesn’t really understand how the world works and keeps trying to force his idealism onto others. It would be nice for him to have peers among humans that had a different outlook to him who also had a similar level of power among the people.

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More than annoying, it’s a bit unrealistic.

It’s natural to have certain degree of dissent, as in the House of Nobles alone, we would realistically have different points of view and different agendas.

That doesn’t mean it should mean outright conflict amongst the human segments that make up the different ruling bodies. But yeah, some acknowledgment of the fact that they are not all Anduin Drones is necessary.

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Especially when you consider most of those nobles would have lands and assets in their old kingdoms they would want to retake. Especially when you consider the only reasons stormwind is a thing anymore is because the other kingdoms banded together and took stormwind back from the Horde.

Defining WoW Humans ethnic features by location seems like the objection from most people here - and it seems quite unnecessary.

As things are currently, we can have a previously unheard of Noble house with people of color, without some notion that people with similar ethnic features are all from the same specific area.

That openness about WoW Humans is what many people like. Your idea crosses that threshold of “pigeon holing” locations based on race.

That is like saying we can’t have a Black mayor in New York, and that black people should only be mayors in Africa. Why should noble houses be used as “Ethnicity Nodes” going forward when it has never been that way?

I do not think having a black or brown or “Asian” appearance on a Noble house should denote that they lord over that sort of people specifically. It actually stifles lore and narrows it, instead of growing the lore and expanding it.

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I think that would naturally happen. There aren’t that many zones where you could designate to these newer Noble houses. At most you will get maybe one or two Asian and Black bigger nobles houses, as a brown guy I am quite used to the Diversity awareness in media ending there typically :joy:

Like I said to Doness, there is no quest that starts talking about how humans evolve, its just as you plop down the PoC NPCs you are indirectly making those statements where you like it or not. For example with the limited zones we could cover we can have two black noble houses, one from Westfall and the other from now a less hostile EPL.
Is that truly enough not to pigeonhole? Because if we want to be too critical of it we could say “Oh so the Lordaeron black people are from here and the Stormwind Black people are from there and they cant be from anywhere else!”

There is just so few slots to fill with both remaining unexplored kingdoms and available zones where we could really do this.

That appears to be one of the major issues, as far as I see it. It would engender discussion like :

“That guy RPs like he is from the Cathedral District, but we all know his kind are from East Stratholm. He needs to study his Paper Bag Pretest before he pretends to be one of us.”

It really adds a disgusting veneer that is not necessary.

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But isn’t that just world building?

“Yeah I am from the East Stratholm district but because of the scourge my family had to relocate to the Cathedral District for the past 30 years.”

Or

“Yeah my ancestors were probably from East Stratholm but my House was there when Cathedral District fell to the Orcs in the first war”

I don’t think this is the downside people think it is. Whats the alternative? We shouldn’t worldbuild or develope human lore just so its ambiguous enough that anything is possible?

Thats what I have been arguing against this whole time.

Again, that is explaining stuff that does not need to be explained.

It comes off like asking a person of color why they are in a neighborhood that historically has not had them. Currently, only the race baiters require such explanations. Most people can deal with humans of various skin tones existing in a fantasy world.

It comes off as if people of color need an explanation to exist in a modern day fantasy… instead of just being there with the rest of humanity.

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So I guess I am marking you as a nay for other human noble houses who are PoC.

One of the things I find the most offensive is that White people are always the default.
They get the vrykul lore. they get the noble houses. they get the kingdoms.
What do I get?

Stable Boy #3 in Darkshore.
Mayor #5 in Southshore.
Guardsman #2 in the Keep.

Why? They just stick the diversity token in some corner because you know he is there too I guess. No I will have to disagree with you Cursewords, I really really do.
And if you are afraid some people are going to be actually racist in game, report them and get them banned. Problem solved.

I don’t think anybody is against PoC nobles? The issue comes when some people expect an explanation for why they’re black. They can just exist.

To me, worldbuilding on par with the orc heritage quest would be about delving into how people in Stormwind live. What do they import / export? Do they have local holidays? How does someone become a knight? Stuff like that.

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Guess what ever you will, even though I specifically said otherwise :

I said I would like to see it, but you are marking me against it in your ridiculous mental notes?

Do as you will, it shows the level of discourse one can expect from you.

As I said - I would like to see noble houses reflecting various ethnicities, and that can be done currently. They do not need to be pigeon holed to locations based on their skin color.

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This seems to be the only thing most people are against. PoC don’t need to be from So and so zone to justify them existing. Like said, why can’t they just exist like everyone else? Why is it that only PoC seemingly need a justification to exist in game, according to some?

To the average Normal gamer, when they see a PoC NPC they don’t think I wonder where they came from. It doesn’t even cross the minds of most people. At least people I know.

We tend to overestimate how much people actually care about minute details in game. The average gamer doesn’t really pay attention to most of the things that tend to get argued over on this forum and on twitter regarding WoW

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Brother chill out, firstly if I am writing it out here, they aren’t my mental notes. Just notes.
Second you are saying you don’t want the noble houses be from regions which would automatically pigeonhole them as I explained earlier.

How? Because you seem to accept it in theory but not in practice.
Where would you put them if you can’t put them anywhere in the game world?
You have to put them somewhere. If you don’t then they don’t exist.

The twitter crowd probably know specific words but you have a blind spot.
The entire human lore is for the white humans because thats how Blizzard wrote them 20 years ago, now that they are adding diversity to the humans they have to share in with what the white humans already have in spades.
So the best course of action is for the non-white humans to get absolutely nothing… just share.

As far as characters in the story, the particular person and their family could be from a place without meaning every person of similar skin color or facial features is of that place.

We could have a family relocating to Arathi under Stormwinds banner. Or the Plaguelands. The particular character and their family can be nobles without requiring that everyone who looks like them hails from their region.

Currently there are white type folks who hail from all over the Eastern kingdoms. People of color are Humans too, even though some need reminding.

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As I said in my previous post there are not too many nobles, kingdoms and regions you can draw from to insert these new characters or noble houses.
Whether you like it or not merely putting them there will give a nod, however subtle you are comfortable with the pigeonhole issue.

You don’t even need the game, as I have said 50 times by now, say “And all the black people are from here” You will naturally do that by putting a black noble family in some location they say they hail from with couple of black supporting characters. Its unavoidable.

My biggest complaint nowadays is that nothing is allowed to be ambiguous and or just exist. There seems to be a group of people who want the tiniest detail for everything that exists in games or other media.

And it’s honestly what’s ruining a lot of games for me and my friends. Nobody’s is seemingly allowed to use their imagination anymore.

Why PoC can’t just simply exist in game and we let people make up their own stories for their own characters is beyond me. It’s literally the only group that people are demanding a explanation and or justification for it and it’s really something else to witness

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Again… you don’t seem to understand.
Because the white fantasy races got their development and anyone that isn’t white is told to just headcanon who or why they are.

Yeah just use your imagination. We can’t possibly be bothered to make anything for you.

Must be why the biggest complaint is that humans in game are so generic and boring. But sure, they got their development. Outside of being descents of Vykrul and living in Tirisfal initially.

They’re your generic fantasy race. But according to you, their lore is astounding and has depth.

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No thats not why, this is again one of those negative IQ takes.

Just because they are white doesn’t make them generic, boring, race has nothing to do with being generic. Being superficial and puddle deep is what makes them generic Micah.

Truly we are reaching levels of IQ that not even James Cameron can pull up.
The bar is so low already but there you go. :rofl: