The Scarlet Crusade should have ended in Legion

The similarities of the Klan and the Scarlets kinda works but not even close to the same conditions.

In USA it’s pretty illegal to just gun someone down cuz they start saying hate speech or holding klan gatherings. (Despite the overwhelming urge to do it.)

How in the hell is anything or one still alive in Tirisfal to even care about some ruined Kingdom?

If they’re from Northrend then whatever but still, seeing another Scarlet Crusade after they keep getting bodied and throughly cleaned out causes fatigue. The forsaken popping out of the lake Pirates of the Caribbean style was pretty cool tho, I can’t deny that.

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During BfA, the same time Genn had his shifting views, the Forsaken were involved in the War of Thorns and the Burning of Teldrassil. They used Blight plague to reanimate dead Alliance and Horde at the Battle of Lorderaen. They also took over Darkshore and infected the land with Blight until around the time of Shadowlands. Those are the atrocities I was talking about, which they were doing at the time.

Ever considered deradicalizing Klansmen out of their racist hatred instead of defaulting to violence? It’s been done before (while it’s a murderous hate group, not every member has a body count).

At least the Scarlets began with legitimate grievances (purge the undead who destroyed their homeland and reclaim it), the Klan didn’t (attack black people and those who oppose antebellum-style slavery after the civil war). The Klan also grab symbolism from religions rather than follow one.

The whole point of the Scarlet Crusade is that it can’t die. It’s an extremist, unhinged, ideology of hate and irrationality. Such ideas never go away, they go into hiding, and the mantle gets picked up by the next generation of similar whackjobs, continuity optional.

Such ideologies survive even when an organization doesn’t. Someone new just has to come back and wave the same flag.

That’s the entire joke, that they keep returning with a new and absurd name like Scarlet Armageddon, Scarlet Apocalypse, Scarlet Kralizec, etc…

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Right, you have the timeline off.
In Legion he viewed them as basically irredeemable monsters.
In Before the Storm he began to see them as people (capable of good and bad).
In Legion he saw them doing bad stuff, sure.
But that didn’t revert him back to seeing them as irredeemable monsters. Hence why “it’s hard to believe he would consider peace with the Forssaken while some were doing the same kind of atrocities”, he wasn’t considering peace at that time, he was actively working to stop them. Now that they’ve been stopped, peace can be considered.

So when did Genn start to consider peace with them? Because if it was in Before the Storm, that took place BEFORE the Burning of Teldrassil.

To a point.

There’s always someone who’ll champion such views, but that doesn’t mean they’ll always join the same group. For example, racial tensions in the US have become more enflamed, but you don’t see a revival or surge of growth in the Klan. Instead, people start their own hate groups or join other groups to corrupt them.

To join the Scarlet Crusade, someone has to be 1) human 2) a ruthless Light worshipper 3) Hate non-humans. That shrinks the pool of candidates drastically among Azeroth’s people. As stated before, the Scarlet Crusade’s track record of failure means it’s more likely people will join other groups or make a new one instead of backing on the same dead horse.

The number of Third Reich Supporters still in existence nearly 80 years on seems to indicate that people will back a dead horse a very long time indeed.

That said, we do not know how the typical salt of the earth human sees them. Blizzard would NEVER show it, but there is an argument they may be seen as a folk hero group by a not insignificant number of people. It is not hard to paint them as people who are still fighting the good fight against the living dead who took their ancestral home over after every one else has given up or chosen peace with the scourge usurpers.

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There are a few key differences, mainly, the Third Reich had a bigger track record of success than the Scarlet Crusade ever had (eg; they took over a nation and started a World War). The Scarlet Crusade was splintering after two years (several broke off to form the Scarlet Onslaught in Wrath) and couldn’t even take over half a nation.

Don’t use headcanon to do the writers’ work for them. Why would the typical salt of the earth human see them that way when they’ve spent years making enemies and other groups actually have success fighting undead? Not every human commoner hates non-humans while also worshipping the Light. And then there’s that Scarlet track record…

  • Argent Crusade recruiter; “My group has bases around the world, we defended Light’s Hope Chapel from the Lich King’s champions, sailed to Northrend, scattered the Scourge and slew the Lich King himself! Since then, we’ve been putting down undead around the world.”

  • Scarlet Crusade recruiter; “We… have a few bases in the Eastern Kingdoms and haven’t managed to drive the undead out a city yet. But any day now… any day… HUMANS ONLY!”

Why are people so emotionally invested in fighting the Scarlet Crusade?

I just explained that. When the Horde wasn’t doing horrible war crimes.

Didn’t you say that Genn was considering peace in Before the Storm? Because that was quickly followed up with more Forsaken war crimes that’d make him recant his position on peace (if not the Forsaken themselves).

During Cata the Alliance dumped an entire population of human transplants into the Plaguelands, and we’ve got the Argents occupying the east as well. There’s no particular shortage of humans in the area. I think it’s sensible to assume that the new Scarlets are primarily pulled from thereabouts.

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What I said was is that he starts seeing them as people in Before the Storm. So even if they end up doing atrocities later, they’re still people, so peace is still possible down the road.

Because there’s a big difference between viewing a something as inhumane monsters that are worse than demons and viewing them as people.

I really don’t like having the Scarlets come back because it screws with my idea of consequence meaning anything in this story. I hate it. I hate when the narrative makes it feel like the things we do don’t matter. Like the things anyone does doesn’t matter when they want to just pluck an aesthetic out and reuse it for reasons (c.f. druids of the flame, which, just like the scarlets, have a really cool look).

But it’s very hard to argue with your points like this, and this is probably the bigger problem overall.

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I get it, though admittedly I find it hard to sympathize at this point because I can’t help but envisioning “showing consequences” to extend to BFA, which should logically be held over the horde’s and horde player’s head forever and uuuuugh.

Even if it goes unmentioned, it’s going to permeate every cross-faction interaction in the story until WoW dies because trying to suss out how characters should act around each other is going to have genocide loom over everything like an inescapable shadow. Consequence itself has become a poison in this regard.

And I worry there’s really nothing else for the core horde fan to latch onto for the next 2 expansions, at least from what we’ve been told. :confused:

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I think the Scarlet Crusade works better as a shadowly organization ruled over by Dreadlords as a third party antagonistic force to both factions, then a geopolitical mirror of irl religious hate groups tied exclusively to the Alliance.

To the original point, the Onslaught (which is still the Crusade for all intents and purposes) is fairly alive and well eeking out a living in Northrend. So the Crusade as a whole has never died or ended no matter how many times we sack Scarlet Monastery. To use a probably out of scale but appropriate example, the Roman Empire didn’t end when Rome fell in the 400s, Constantinople stood until the 1400s. Different name, different cultures, same entity.

The Crusade in the Eastern Kingdom though, as others have said, is a radical sect that had created a name for themselves for their uncompromising fight against all undead, primarily. What I think made them stand apart in players minds is the wild west of what the Plaguelands was, the actual danger that was felt as you stepped into it back in the day. It really highlighted how game play complimented, and created, world building. They weren’t pushovers in the slightest. Their fall from radical yet, relatively, good intentioned organization to human supremacists and extremists due to their circumstances (of course aided by Dreadlords :roll_eyes:) created compelling villains. At the same time, the Argents were seen as relative nobodies hardly clawing back against the Scourge whereas these red wearing fellas had entire bastions under their control. They were objectively successful to an outsider.

So creating them as a main villain isn’t as bad as others make it out to be. How they’ve been reintroduced, however, is their real weakness. We had the perfect opportunity to show how the strain of the world causes these folks to pop up, yet we’re never shown. They just appear.

What can be considered folk heroes in some way (how far does the whole true story of the Scarlets go?) could/should have had real successful recruitment drive in the wake of the Helm of Domination being broken and the remaining Scourge having this huge sudden resurgence all across the world. Plagued individuals in cities all over again, undead running rampant, a human kingdom who’s draft policies was about to call up farmers really about to scrape the bottom of the barrel, the Argent Crusade, who’s promised to take care of these undead things seemingly wholly ineffective of containing or stopping this from happening, of course people are going to start looking elsewhere. Who else is there as an alternative but this reactionary extremist group who knows how to lie and pitch their narrative? Especially one that can point a finger at the former Warchief of the Horde and leader of the Forsaken - of undead Lordearon as the reason for their plight. “The Argents counldn’t put down on of their own!” as they point to Lord Barthalomew and Faol. “The Horde killed your X, and yet they are allowed to remain within the Argent Crusade?” You have Death Knights attacking, and mostly getting through, Lights Hope Chapel, “No undead is to be trusted! Even our ‘allies’”. Any reclamationist knows Capital City is in ruins (more than normal) and the Forsaken are on shaky ground at best. Even if they’re not radical Lordearon reclaimers, what better time than now to kick them when they’re down, as we saw? They’ve also had five years to recruit until we saw them again, not to mention all the time prior to SL. They clearly had enough to reclaim the Scarlet Monastery by the time the Ebon Blade rolled through, so they’re not as insignificant as folks here are assuming. Now with demons, void elves, werewolves, undead, and robots walking through the Alliance, its not a stretch to condemn them even further and draw in those who are weary of these choices.

All that to say they are compelling villains, there is a narrative justification for them existing in larger numbers, they never truly went away, and a lack of world building is what makes them so jarring at this time. Having real consequences to the world Blizzard creates in the form of these radical sects, with reason to exists other than “I heard titans and order bad.” should be encouraged because this is how it actually happens.

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Y’know, I think it’s pretty telling that the majority of people on this board who want the Scarlets gone are exactly the people I suspect of having IRL beliefs most similar to the Scarlets. Methinks maybe they don’t like looking in the mirror.

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I have never played the DK story, but I was under the impression that shortly after the Priest OH raided them, the DKs went and wiped them all out? To say nothing of the Wrath storyline for them.

I don’t disagree with your post overall, I think you make great points. I just wish Blizzard had gone less repeatedly-final with this group to wipe them out “once and for all!” – they should have been clawing back the Vanilla obliteration in Wrath, not repeating it and going back for thirds.

Its mentioned the Crusade was effectively enough dismantled to no longer be a threat or coherent organization in Legion by the Ebon Blade and into BFA, but the Onslaught has been relatively untouched since Wrath. The latest Exploring Northrend book stated a surprisingly large amount of Crusaders at Onslaught Harbor in Icecrown and New Hearthglen is still operational despite the leadership losses they suffered in Wrath.

Clearly with the Forsaken heritage quest, we see the Ebon Blade didn’t wipe them out enough in Legion. Looking back too for this info, was stating that the Ebon Blade was raising fallen Alliance and Horde soliders in BFA to make more Death Knights, why we get all the allied race options in SL, and how that hasn’t caused an uproar even among rational people in both factions is beyond me, but add it to the list of reasons why little Timmy in Westfall just might become a Scarlet once he learned cousin Bob was killed by the Horde and raised as a Death Knight by, potentially, one of the former champions of the Alliance.

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mumbles into cereal about Blizzard needing to look into victory states beyond total obliteration if they want to keep recycling

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Yeah it is extremely silly that the Scarlets in Northrend are still around.

  1. The Forsaken tears them apart in New Healthglen. Even killing all but one of their leaders. That leader being Mal’ganis in disguise. Mal’ganis does resurrect one of said leaders due to his loyalty, despite knowing the truth about the “Admiral”.
  2. What was left of the Onslaught relocated to Icecrown to take on the Lich King directly. This group was destroyed by the Knights of the Ebon Blade. Which caused Mal’ganis to retreat.
  3. Somehow despite being the testing grounds of the Forsakens new plague prior to the Wrathgate, the onslaught still maintains a hold over New Hearthglen. Some of its members defect to the Priests Order Hall. What was left was killed by the Knights of the Ebon Blade.
  4. And despite ALL OF THE ABOVE, they STILL exist as of Exploring Northrend.

Either the surviving Scarlets breed like rabbits and have the rate of maturity of a cockroach or someone at Blizzard loves to beat a dead horse.

There is a reason why I quoted Dr Neo Cortex from Crash Twinsanity earlier in the thread. Because you have to be INSANE to say that the Scarlet Crusade and Onslaught are still around.

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