The Scarlet Crusade are not a nation like the examples you cited, they are a fringe extremist cult. There’s a big difference and you know it (the Scarlet Crusade are surrounded by enemies, have nothing to bargain with and can’t threaten the existence of other major factions).
Blizzard has been flushing all that nuance and history down the toilet and you know it.
Just one more example of how badly written they’ve become.
The Argent Crusade are FAR MORE EFFECTIVE at fighting the undead than the Scarlet Crusade ever were.
How can the Scarlet Crusade, who keep losing and making enemies, be folk heroes instead of the Argent Crusade who are far more popular and keep winning? Even Underdog Syndrome has limits.
How would the common man know about the Death Knight’s attacking Argents at Light’s Hope chapel… but not know of the Argent Crusade’s many, many victories?
They are not compelling villains anymore, there is no narrative justification for them to exist that doesn’t ignore swathes of lore, and you are right about the lack of world building and real consequences dragging the story down.
Cool story, bro. Can’t refute the argument, so you make cowardly personal attacks on others.
Accusing people who want the Scarlets gone as having IRL beliefs similar to the Scarlets and thinking it’s like a mirror is the same as accusing people who want the Scarlets to stick around of being the equally bad opposite real-life extreme and not liking their hidden prejudices being exposed.
I don’t think that of everyone who wants the Scarlet Crusade to stick around.
Can we get back to facts and arguments, please?
Spot on!
Speaking of breeding like rabbits, breeding wouldn’t boost the Crusade or the Onslaught’s numbers.
The Scarlet Onslaught appeared in Wrath, which was 11 years before Dragonflight. Even if they had children who survived all the hazards of Northrend, attacks from the Alliance and Horde AND the Onslaught purging dissenters, the oldest would only be 10 years old tops (give or take some months in the womb).
The oldest children born among the Scarlet Crusade would be 15 years old (give or take some months in the womb) by the time of Dragonflight. And that’s assuming they survived repeated attacks from the Alliance, the Horde, Scourge remnants, the Death Knights and hazards of the Eastern Kingdoms.
And - as of this comment - there’s no lore of either the Scarlet Crusade or the Scarlet Onslaught using child soldiers.
Except Blizzard is saying they are still around, so we play with the cards we’re dealt. They survived enough at least in Northrend to continue to have a presence as the Onslaught. Who knows if they’re converts, defectors, or patrols and battalions out on assignment when insert enemy here rolled on through. Similarly with the Crusade, clearly between Legion and now they were able to muster enough people to have a pretty effective go at Undercity and looks like they’ve been in Gilneas a bit.
So we can say its dumb and bad writing and complain about recycled enemies, all of which is true, or we can become a little creative and attempt to explain the hows and whys about them still being around, which I think I gave a pretty compelling explanation. Quite honestly, our options for anything are either reuse enemies for better or worse (how many times have we cleared out the Syndicate, Witherbark, and Ogres in Arathi?) or we create new enemies that we tilt our heads at and go ‘how did they get here?’ like the Primalists. Blizzard has not invested in their old world story telling enough to create new bubbling factions that can be given time to grow and becomes something new and compelling.
It worked in Classic because there was 0 information about the post WC2 Alliance other than through what limited info we had from the early orc campaign and later the campaigns in Lordearon. They practically had a blank canvas to world build and did not need to tease and show build up from WC3 to classic. As it says in the intro cinematic itself, “4 years have passed since the mortal races banded together.” Blizzard gave us 5 between Shadowlands and now and yet we can’t imagine how the world could have changed in the still wild west of Northern Eastern Kingdoms? Longer if we want to go back to BFA where the whole status quo went up in plague. There was Schrodinger’s Gilneas, the Forsaken were crippled as a state and functioning military force in their own home, there was a who knows how long campaign in Arathi, Scarlet propaganda already popping up, and the whole host of reasons I listed previously that encourages people to find alternatives.
We have the narrative reasoning, its simply a matter of applying it to make the story at least somewhat cohesive.
Its perception. Again, objectively, in Classic the Scarlets were far more effective at fighting the Scourge and managed to create bastions for the living from the Scarlet Monastery, Hearthglen, Tyr’s Hand, and their Enclave in Stratholm of all places. Literately until we rolled around to take care of them they were putting in the work, Dreadlord controlled or not. Its a successful history Scarlets can fall back on, glorify, and twist.
But even moving on from there, as we know they were defeated time and again primarily by us, the Scarlets are not seen as the cause for Bob the Builder’s troubles. The Argent Crusade was suppose to protect them from the Scourge, yet the Scourge showed up to Stormwind and all of its surrounding areas. What does that do to moral? How does one trust the Argents or Stormwind can continue to protect you? Throw in a little propaganda like we know the Scarlets do and its not particularly hard to win over converts when the world is under threat of ending every other year and your own personal livelihood was just threatened in a very real way.
People look at big events far more then the every day wins. People remember the losses and hardship far more than the victories. Once again, add some propaganda in there and you’re raking in converts and discrediting otherwise good organizations because of some temporary weakness, mistake, or fault. They also remember more recent history than older. Recently, within the last 7 years, they’ve been devastated. There was hardship 20 years ago too, but this was a whole new level. So toss in the Argents being betrayed, both in the propagandized sense and in a mildly objective sense by the Ebon Blade. To a Scarlet recruiter, its gold. “Those who tolerate the undead, who spared them, now may finally see the folly of their ways.” Entire Argents were there to bare witness as Death Knights attacked Lights Hope once again and probably spread the word. Whereas who was there to witness a Dreadlord come out of a Crusader? Some random adventurers? Balnazzar’s head is turned in, only to return with undead Scarlets in tow. What greater opportunity for a propagandist. “We are the bulwark against demons and undead alike! The scheming Dreadlord slaughtered our leader and turned our crusaders into Scourged beasts!” Fast forward to now with Void Elves running around and potential Man’ari, “We let the same demons walk our streets?” The Scarlet archives, further, are burned. So what information is there left to even share?
These, and in my post prior, are all ways Scarlets can continue to rebuild and recruit but woefully are never shown in game, instead forcing us to infer as to how they’re as alive as they are now. There are, further, no shortage of Lost Causers and highly nationalistic reactionaries in other countries that can be shown as to how losers, who also tend to make more enemies by the day, are able to propagandize and make folk heroes out of the most vile people of history and continue to find fresh faces.
I’d argue that it’s more of the Scarlet Brotherhood from BFA. They had missives that also talked about using Genn as the High King for a time before wanting to kill him too. Which I think people have glossed over that they had plans to use Genn as a puppet.
You used a lot of words to say “use headcanon to excuse bad writing and lazy worldbuilding”.
Resting on their laurels from Classic doesn’t help them, as they’ve had failure after failure since then while the Argent Crusade racked up win after win.
Over time, word also gets around about the Scarlet Crusade’s defeats and terrible actions. People have bad encounters with them, especially if they have non-humans friends or family. Then a much bigger, better and more successful alternative emerges and their recruitment pool shrinks.
Then in Legion, people from the Scarlet Onslaught defect, and words gets out about how nasty the Scarlet Onslaught is, casting doubt on them further.
The Argent Crusade would tell stories about the Death Knight attack on Light’s Hope Chapel, but you left out the ending; the Light itself drove the Death Knights from Light’s Hope Chapel, tails between their legs. That is a big event where the “the Light is with us” true story would be told to boost support for the Argent Crusade (unlike the Scarlet Crusade, they don’t need to use lies to win recruits); “The Light itself protects us and drove out the most powerful Death Knights in the world.” Meanwhile, in Legion, the Scarlet Crusade were decimated by a smaller group of Death Knights who only left because they got what/who they came for.
Also, we stopped that fire mage from burning the Scarlet Crusade’s archives, so there’s surviving records.
We should not be forced to infer things to excuse bad writing, that is just copium.
Because they’re very different things. Comparing the Scarlet Crusade to the Spanish Inquisition (fiction vs reality aside) is like saying fruits and vegetables are the same because they’re plants.
There are plenty of threats for the Forsaken to fight.
Bandits
Ogres (though I think ogres could do with some nuance and heroic members too), *
Forces of the expansion villain
Renegade dragons (like those who serve the Primalists, or simply dragon society’s equivalent of criminals)
Renegade kobold or furbolg tribes.
Monsters
Renegade undead threats (iirc there’s a scenario implying Denathrius is using Dreadlords to take over remnants of the Scourge)
Demons (the Burning Legion is no longer a cosmic threat, but the demons are still a threat - Tichondrius and Mannoroth weren’t permanently killed off).
As we see, there’s still plenty of threats for the Forsaken to fight.
heritage quest is meant to be a celebration of a races heritage, random bandits have nothing to do with the forsaken, so they would make an already barely ok questline worse
I’ve been saying that ever since I saw signs there’d be Scarlet Crusade involvement in the questline. I think a more fitting foe for a Worgen heritage questline would be one like the Wolf Cult or some renegade Druids of the Scythe.
And now the Forsaken heritage questline has come and gone, there are all sorts of other foes they can fight without beating that dead scarlet horse.
That is a good point. I did that questline in Legion with my DK and the Death Knights were secretive about making Nazgrim and Thorbas Death Knights, with Darion stating the Alliance and Horde would be angry if they knew; the Alliance about Thorbas and the Horde abougt Nazgrim. I think this means that they don’t know what the Ebon Blade did with Nazgrim and Thorbas, apart from the PCs, because the Death Knights were secretive about it.
That said, I agree that there should be some backlash against the Ebon Blade - as much as I enjoy Death Knights - if they get found out (like how the Paladins call in a favor from the Ebon Blade after their attempt to raise Fordring, and how the Red dragons are soured on Death Knights after the class mount quest).
