The Raid Scene is Dying because of M+

[Raiimir-stormrage]

@Alastrace-proudmoore

Which started in MoP.

No, it started in WoD for the Heroic level.

MoP had a queueable difficulty called Flex for SoO, Normal kept the fixed 10/25 sizes.

[Tobiabstruse-illidan]

The vendors that let you buy weapons and trinkets.

And sure, a +20 should be dropping 304 gear right away.

[Autai-moon-guard (Autai)]

@Tobiabstruse-illidan

The vendors that let you buy directly weapons and trinkets.

That’s not what I’m even remotely discussing. That is a token exchange vs. the general boss drops.

I think you’re confused. Imma move on.

[Krahkhurz-bleeding-hollow]

@Murdercarpet-zuljin

The real reason mythic+ is bad for the game is that it divides raid teams into “those who are willing and able to spam unlimited high keys” and “those who are not”. The players who have unlimited time on their hands and a desire to do this eventually become much better geared.

Totally agreed, this has happened so many times for me since M+ released.

[Tobiabstruse-illidan]

This goes both ways and ion is more than happy to make people raid.

[Pouiya-drakthul (Pouiya)]

If mythic + wasn’t a thing it would be something else “killing” raiding.
I keep seeing complaints that the roster boss is killing raid teams. I would assume that if raiding is a fun activity more people would do it. Aside from the dopamine hit someone gets when they get gear,

[Tobiabstruse-illidan]

In season 1 it was pvp!

[Murdercarpet-zuljin]

@Våld-area-52

Sounds like whoever does the recruiting in your guild is terrible at recruiting then.

Want to raid log? Recruit raid loggers.

Want people who run M+? Recruit M+ players.

It sounds like you think that wow is riding a massive wave of growth with millions of experienced top-notch raiders and key-pushers readily available. It seems odd that you think that barring raiders from doing mythic+ is somehow going to be good for a guild, its morale, and its raid progression.

Hint: WoW raiding saw its lowest participation ever during season 3. Making up tall tales about it isn’t going to change that. This is Blizzard’s problem, not an issue where all of a sudden all those raid recruiters suddenly got bad at recruiting.

[Raiimir-stormrage]

@Tobiabstruse-illidan

This goes both ways and ion is more than happy to make people raid

Ion quit raiding 3 bosses into Sanctum. Even he doesn’t eat his own dogfood anymore.

[Tobiabstruse-illidan]

@Murdercarpet-zuljin

WoW raiding saw its lowest participation ever during season 3.

Because they tuned the raid for world first guilds.

[Murdercarpet-zuljin]

@Tobiabstruse-illidan

Because they tuned the raid for world first guilds.

They tuned the raid to drag out world first as long as possible, figuring that they could tweak it later on the fly. And nobody would notice or care.

[Tobiabstruse-illidan]

And I’m glad their experiment failed and they acknowledged they won’t do it again.

[Foxmulder-the-venture-co]

The raid scene isn’t dying because of mythic +

The raid scene is dying because a bunch of zerg mode heroes keep gate keeping others from entering with their “link aotc”

You wanna make raiding enjoyable again with more people involved, remove that achievement

[Yonbi-illidan (Yonbi)]

@Krahkhurz-bleeding-hollow

M+ you can pug 4 people easily and run, while raiding is more difficult to pug, and usually you have to find a guild with 19 other competent raiders to even begin to progress in Mythic raids.

M+ on the other hand, drops the same (if not better) loot as raids, can be grinded endlessly, and gives loot a lot faster than raiding ever will.

A raid on average gives you 1-3 items per clear and then 1 for vault.
M+ is just 1 item per week at best.

Some of the best weapons, trinkets, and tier (different for first time in SL S3) also typically comes from raid.

So gearing is better through raid, still to this day, despite M+.

So…

I think your real criticism being vocalized here is that raiding at what you consider to be a good difficulty for you (Mythic) is unapproachable.

I still think they should get rid of the lockout from Mythic raids. Ion said it isn’t meant to be “puggable”. Yet it still is. Despite their hurdles. What he should have said is that it requires “significant coordination”. You can still do that in a pug.

The lockout hurts everyone. Especially towards the end of a season/xpac when folks are taking breaks. They could even remove the lockout after some arbitrary period in the tier if they want to keep it “competitive” for the first third/half/whatever.

Though I would question why we are trying to keep it “competitive”. Is this an e-sport or an mmo? If you try to do both, it will end up as mediocre at each.

[Raiimir-stormrage]

@Foxmulder-the-venture-co

The raid scene is dying because a bunch of zerg mode heroes keep gate keeping others from entering with their “link aotc”

No player has the ability to gatekeep you. You have as much capability of entering the raid as they do.

[Foxmulder-the-venture-co]

@Raiimir-stormrage

No player has the ability to gatekeep you. You have as much capability of entering the raid as they do.

If someone is making a group and requires an achievement… that is stopping you from joining said group… GUESS WHAT?

[Tobiabstruse-illidan]

There’s plenty of prog raids or guilds looking to pug.

[Krahkhurz-bleeding-hollow]

@Yonbi-illidan

Is this an e-sport or an mmo? If you try to do both, it will end up as mediocre at each.

I think this is a great point. Why are raids being built as an e-sport in an MMO?

[Raiimir-stormrage]

@Foxmulder-the-venture-co

If someone is making a group and requires an achievement…

Then you make a group and don’t require the achievement.

@Foxmulder-the-venture-co

that is stopping you from joining said group

But not from entering the raid.

@Foxmulder-the-venture-co

GUESS WHAT?

What ?

[Tobiabstruse-illidan]

@Krahkhurz-bleeding-hollow

Why are raids being built as an e-sport in an MMO?

This is a community driven thing and not on blizzard.