Ok. So by your argument, the low raid participation is because it is bad content, the high M+ participation is irrelevant because it is bad content, and the open world quests are just bad content.
Why do you play this game again?
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Arena gear will now scale and the better arena person you are the better pve item lvl you get.
Raids should have a valor equivalent for upgrading gear, and vault rewards for raiding should be an increased item level piece than what the raid drops, just like m+
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I prefer mythic plus. Because raiding is usually done with guilds and they tend to want you to stick to one character to progress on. And I enjoy playing all the classes and not sticking to one character. Mythic plus at least lets me do that without feeling guilty for spreading my play time across all the classes and enjoying all the gameplay aspects this game has to offer. VS raiding which is more limiting.
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Sounds reasonable
Raiders should be able to collect currency to upgrade normal to heroic and heroic to mythic, and mythic to?
And agree, I don’t raid but I had assumed the ilvl you got was already increase from what dropped in the raid? Eg: 3x boss kills on normals gives a heroic ilvl loot drop in the vault?
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My argument is that participation is largely irrelevant toward the quality of the content.
Raid participation has been doing fine for an expansion as bad as SL
M+ is bad because of design issues that it causes. It cannibalizes any content under mythic raid for pve as it’s the easiest content for those rewards. And it’s spammability burns player out as you’ve added a lot of time spent to get those rewards compared to clearing 1 raid week.
The only good side is that it should make it easier to catchup toward gear, but that hasn’t made mythic raiding participation higher so I consider that not relevant.
Why do you play this game? For the loot only?
I play because I enjoy raids and content outside of them. M+ shouldn’t have to be farmed for the whole season for rewards. And my wish is just that they split M+ from raiding as both are not made for the same type of players.
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Not unless they changed it since last time i raided (9.0), which i don’t recall ever hearing about. If you kill normal bosses your vault has normal gear.
That is correct. Although, if you killed the last 2 bosses of the raid you do have a chance for slightly higher ilvl gear but still below the next difficulty.
Season 4 is the first time they are offering the ability to upgrade raid gear…but to upgrade a normal piece to heroic, you have to kill 20 heroic bosses first. The same rules apply to upgrading a piece to mythic ilvl.
Yeah exactly, who should ever care about obtaining loot. Just very weird.
Thank you all for the comments. It’s clear a lot of people are really into M+ and alot of people aren’t (like me). But I don’t want to tarnish the M+ key experience for those that like it, I want to find middle ground. I just felt my experience was the ‘typical’ raiding experience (Heroic//AOTC near end of season) which is why I came up with my solution (that would take nothing away from key runners).
You see when you cut what I said, it doesn’t mean the same thing. And I didn’t say to totally not care about loot.
There is a difference with an arpg like M+ is and raiding that is more like mmorpg content.
Both cater to different type of players, both loot method are antithetical to the other. And so it’s better if they’re split off.
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Here I cut the other part out. I feel like spending the time in game I spend in game regardless of loot because I do it for the content. IDK why anyone would spend their time in game for other reasons than content. Getting stronger gear for player power isn’t content, it’s a means to an end.
Well, I’m saying you shouldn’t give even more than 0% cares about loot. It’s irrelevant other than a construct to have the slightest customization on your performance.
That’s pretty unclear and really trying hard to change what I said. I said what I said, not that.
Loot is a tool, but how you hand it out is a construct that determine how you want your game to be played. Right now, it is heavily in M+ favor as it’s spammability is way too strong compared to anything else in the game. As the max rewards are way too easy to get when you only need a +15 and when you add that 5 man is infinitely easier to organize than a raid and you don’t even need to time the key to get loot.
It’s better for both content that they split off as any distribution of loot will not really work.
I think you are thinking of your posts on the forum
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Frankly, the real answer is to implement a lockout on M+ loot. Launching the system with uncapped loot was a mistake from day 1.
Unfortunately, I don’t think it’s possible for them to make such a change after having let it go this long. It’s too late. It’s the norm now, and changing it will cause an exodus because of their inaction.
I understand at the very upper end, the Vault essentially becomes the lockout, but the EoD drops are entirely relevant well into mid-high end gearing, and that poses a problem to players who prefer other content (mainly raiding), since that means everything below Mythic competes with the broken version of M+.
So, the “solution” at this stage is, as others and you have said, to majorly buff the quantity of loot earned in Raids.
And… as much as that might help even things out a little bit, I don’t see it as a good thing. Gearing in a game where a patch lasts like 7 months on average should NOT be a 3 week ordeal. But that’s what its become with M+ (before you get to the “only vault matters” stage). Doubling down on that by buffing other sources to match that insane pace feels like the wrong path for the game to me.
And here’s the thing - even if droprates were drastically improved in raids… M+ would STILL be superior assuming “balanced” ilvl rewards. Because no matter how much loot Raids drop, its a lockout. M+ isn’t. The ability to spam nonstop over a weekend to gear yourself out if you really want to will ALWAYS reign supreme over once-a-week chances at loot.
Yet, talk about ensuring raid loot is always better at equal difficulties, and people throw a massive fit. It’s forced to have mediocre loot with extremely limited loot chances while competing with something that doesn’t have that penalty.
Everything about the situation sucks and contributes to a rushed endgame and the most time-intensive content in the game being the most pointless content in the game.
… I kind of feel like the game might head in a direction where the endgame pillars are totally segregated from one another to ensure they’re each relevant in their own sphere of influence. So instead of PvP vs PvE it’ll be PvP vs Mythic+ vs Raiding. For example, all gear has a “lower” base ilvl, which gets inflated when worn in the appropriate context based on where the gear was earned.
And I’m not happy about that either. I think, within reason, gear should be gear. I’ve disliked the couple pseudo set bonus things they’ve done in the last couple expansions that are only relevant in the raid it drops in. Same thing.
But given there’s apparently no real way to reconcile the difference between M+ and Raiding that won’t piss off WAY too many people, I think this might be the solution they land on an expansion or two from now.
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Not trying to change what you said at all. You seem to think I am though for some reason.
Not really, all it does is time gate the game. How it’s played isn’t going to change in any way.
Op - blizz nerfed raid drops i think in shadowlands and got rid of bonus rolls that was meant to extend raid playable time, I agree raid loot is stingy! M plus especially this season is where the loot is, uncapped valor is making it great!
It’s almost like one isn’t too powerful, and the other isn’t good enough. Instead of players like OP wanting to make something good bad, let’s make the bad thing good.
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blame the whiners who always said to much loot dropping and then we get the beginning of shadowlands which everyone loved so much there was a mass unsub. they need to just get rid of the lockout on raids as there is none for keys run it as much as you want cause raiding and keys don’t mix with the way they are set up.
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I have no idea either why people complained there was to much loot dropping either!
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