I agree in the sense that you can get higher iLVL gear by doing a really low M+ compared to doing a Normal Raid.
The second i saw the ilvl for Normal raids, i opted out for M+. Way easier to get higher ilvl gear with less effort. At least as a tank.
To make Normal raids worth my time it would need to drop 280+ ilvl gear.
Because it was the only gear avenue. Don’t mistake it for a choice.
Why do so many people raid in Classic then vs retail?
People like raiding, they don’t like obscene requirements and grinds that retail put just to raid.
There’s many games you can play if you don’t like raiding. People like raiding.
Because they only have one gearing avenue vs two, so they have to raid and don’t have a choice, as well as Classic generally drawing a different, more hardcore crowd. Additionally, there are not more people raiding in Classic, especially since Classic is a much smaller total pool of players.
People make the choice to play Classic for the raiding because there’s less insane requirements. There are more logs of people raiding Classic than retail. We don’t have other numbers to compare, but Classic raiding population if not bigger is atleast massive.
And I still repeat myself.
The last time I saw someone claim that, they compared total mythic raid logs to Classic, but they didn’t add in heroic or normal, not including the ton of LFRs that happen. Classic also draws in a more hardcore crowd, and with raiding being their only option then of course they will, because there’s nothing else to do at max level in those days lol.
Because you’re splitting the playerbase over a non-issue. I don’t want to have to gear up in both, as they are both under the same umbrella of PvE. Also having to gear up two separate sets is a huge grind and is incredibly new player unfriendly.
More farming? That’s the opposite of everything I’ve been saying.
I don’t want to push anyone out, I want to keep them here by not making them farm 2x the gear for PVE.
No there’s a lot of reasons, and not wanting gear to be a pain point for players isn’t one of the reasons.
There is nothing minor about farming 2x the gear. You might as well go apply for Blizz as their “Monthly Active Users” Director. You would nail it for awhile by doubling the amount of time to gear until subs fell even further through the floor.
I really like this idea. I think maybe it just be the vault option. By clearing the raid, one of your Raid vault items is of quality of the next highest difficulty. That really makes for a nice power gain, for those Heroic raiders looking to get into mythic, and those normal raiders gearing up for heroic.
While the M+ gearing system has its flaws, I think that the valor upgrade system should be applied to raids, unless it already is in DL. Example, LFR gear, can be upgraded via valor to Normal ilvl once you have cleared LFR. Normal can be upgraded to heroic, after you have cleared normal, and so on. This could cause some degen play by Mythic Raiders, and the upper echelon of raiders, but they go to the extreme to gear, and its fairly pointless to design content around them, because the difficulty of Sepulcher in Heroic and Mythic at launch is what happens.
Anything normal + is less than Classic, that’s the number we got.
It’s a big issue, maybe not for you. But many people have made the point that they don’t enjoy M+ and how it’s way too efficient for gear to be ignored. As long as M+ exist it will cannibalize content because of how it’s too good. M+ push people out.
Splitting it off is the middle ground to not nerf m+ to make it more inline with the rest of the game. While sure you could cap M+ to 3 loot a week like raiding is.
The point is bringing more players into the game, that is bigger gain than forcing raiders to do M+ or M+ people to do raids.
No you’re saying you’re fine with the current situation which is more farming than simply being able to choose to only do raids or M+. That’s you’re also fine with farming M+ with no cap. I’m just pointing out the flaw in your logic. Either farming more gear is fine or it’s not.
I actually offered an alternative to the current situation. Being able to spam for loot isn’t MORE farming, the amount of farming is exactly the same whether it happens over 8 weeks or 8 days. You act like by farming M+ with “no cap” means there isn’t an end to it. You’re sorely mistaken.
So what’s this about? Your raid leader forces you to do 4 M+ a week for the vault? Find a more casual guild then.
And that’s just pushing the social players out. The point is to be able to take it slow. There are better games, arpgs like diablo or poe for that playstyle if that’s what you like.
About 200-300M+ per season if you want to be efficient. That’s way too much for something that is a side activity to your main activity. At least before the vault you were efficient by doing only 1 weekly m+.
Agreed. I hate M+, I am only doing it for KSM then not doing it again. I never farmed +15’s any season. Season 1 and 2 I didn’t even do KSM(mounts were ugly)
I just raid usually, but I know my ilvl is always behind because I wont farm the +15’s
No it’s not, you’ll get your gear eventually and if you don’t do Mythic raid or 20+ keys you don’t need that gear anyways. Loot isn’t a game, ARPG and WoW are extremely different games. ARPG are the most boring games ever and it has nothing to do w/ their loot.
I fully geared a BDK in about 8 days from 230 ilvl to 276 ilvl last season because my guild needed it. I think it took all of 35 or so keys in total and only two vaults. The last two ilvl aren’t going to make or break anything. 200-300 keys is the over exaggeration of the century.
Then do one a week, it’s the same time as before. You’re saying here that was efficient so what’s the problem?
Don’t worry I got that message, and I don’t plan on raiding in the futur if the situation with M+ and the vault is the same. That is the point I’m making. You are wanting the game to be more like an arpg by making loot acquisition so fast and spammable, the fact you say you don’t like it is again a confused logic. You just like the statu quo at this point that’s your argument, no real goal.
8 keys a week, 20 weeks in a season that’s 160. Let’s say you skip some weeks to be reasonable but do 20 the first 2 weeks to gear yourself out it makes it up. And that’s for one character that main activity isn’t m+.
The point is that is not the best way to play the game to be efficient. So you’re losing out. You can say that you can do less, but that’s not what the game wants you to do to be optimal.
Right now they’ve pushed so many systems with m+ and vault for engagement that it’s not longer enjoyable for people as like I said you can’t do content outside of it and have fun while you know you could be farming M+ instead. That’s the issue.
If you’re not going to read then idk what we’re doing here.
You only need to do one a week, you said it yourself.
So you want to be efficient, but you want loot to be 2x less efficient by requiring 2x the gear sets?
You only have to do one a week for exactly what you said was efficient. If you still do one M+ a week and you still get the vault. You’re unhappy with something you said you were happy about.
No, you should not be able to get a mythic jailer weapon because you killed heroic jailer.
Make it so you can upgrade a normal item to heroic via a currency you get from heroic, or upgrade a heroic item to mythic via a mythic currency, as long as you’ve killed the boss on heroic/mythic that the item usually drops from.
Prove it, I haven’t yet to see anything that shows that directly.
Someone who wants to do both now has to do twice as much farming, and that’s a big no.
They’re upset someone doing 2x the content is gearing 2x faster… That’s just good design.
Because you lie to yourself with your logic.
I said in BFA, there was no vault in BFA. God you’re horrible and a waste of time.
If you’re gonna do twice the content already, it’s not a penalty. And it’s better to make it more efficient to play 1 content then force people into multiple ones. You even said it yourself that adding too many requirements to get into content is bad. IF doing m+ is problematic because you don’t have enough gear for it then they’re free to make the drops even better than it is if it’s splitted off.
Sepulcher had barely 200k logs for normal and higher, Classic has more than that for one spec.
All I am saying is that raiding in Classic is massive.
If you want to play an arpg and farm 24/7 and thinks that fine good for you. I don’t think that’s good design the way it’s done in wow. Anyway, you seem to prefer them to nerf M+ loot, which can happen too then. Or just double raid loot. I haven’t seen why those other solutions then can’t be good if you don’t like splitting both content.
It will happen or they will burn their players out, which is something that can happen if they want to keep the current systems as is. And it’s been recognized that adding more requirements and grinds was something players don’t like.
We can see by WCL weekly parse count that classic has more people raiding Sunwell than all retail difficulties combined by almost a factor of 10.
There are more destruction warlocks parses raiding Sunwell than all specs combined that raiding SotFO.
During classic’s height of popularity at its launch multiple classes were getting over 1-2 million parses a week while retail was lucky to have a few hundred thousand for the most popular ones.