It’s not a comparison, it’s a similar factor of choice. You are the one being disingenuous. I never took a position of them being analogous, you are the one trying to argue pointless semantics instead of sticking to the issue. Try sticking to the actual discussion topic instead of trying to “win” on stupid technicalities.
All that I’m saying is that comparing Covenants and classes is the wrong comparison to be making.
The problem is that Blizz may design them to override class choices.
Covenant choices should never trump class choices. That leads to BFA levels of apathy.
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Nobody cares what you’re saying, it misses the entire spirit of the discussion.
And here we are again where you just start insulting me instead of trying to actually explain your point, which was that your Covenant choice should be as important as your class choice and I’m saying that it shouldn’t and isn’t. That’s what the disagreement is about plain and simple.
I explained my point, you used a bunch of fallacies as if they somehow refute it. Hint: they don’t.
Azerite armor was modified because it trampled on class fantasy and the choices people made picking classes or specs to play.
Rentals should never override player choices of specs or classes.
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You did nothing to actually defend your argument and you’re angry about that so now you’re attacking the way I phrased my argument. All that you’ve said boils down to “I got what I want screw anyone who doesn’t like it”
Based on replies like
I dont think you actually allow much room for actual discussion
I actually did, keep lying. I spoke about how choice matters in an rpg. If there is no permanence to choice you are all but forced to swap for every activity. It’s stupid.
Keep lying and running your fallacy campaign though 
OP I’m really glad you posted this because I had the exact same thoughts when this was a controversy a couple weeks ago.
For all the people worried about min-maxing, I’ll ask this, why do you pick one classs to play over another? Why would you bother playing any class over a BM hunter? BM hunters have great dps, great mobility, and has a really easy rotation. Sure, other classes don’t have the same dps, but they give utility. Some of the covenant choices will work in this way.
What we should really be doing is asking blizzard to balance the covenant abilities so the only real difference is minor. As in, let’s say DK covenants give a defensive ability. Let’s just say that the night fae defensive has some small amount of utility, but it isn’t as great as the kyrian defensive because the kyrian defensive gives the most damage reduction. But the Venthyr defensive gives a small dps boost! Etc etc.
We should be advocating for this kind of system and advocating for blizzard to spend as much time balancing it. For the people who want the 1 to 2% difference, let them pick that over the aesthetic. You already made a meaningful choice picking a class and spec, and I bet your reasoning is because of aesthetic/playstyle which is exactly what covenants are offering.
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I am. I’m an infrequent subscriber, so I don’t keep tabs on the forum personalities. I can say that I judge the merits of a post on the content of the post. I can see this is a controversial subject, but he is using sound logic and reasoning to state his case. Whether the community disagrees or not with his premise, I think it’s content should be argued fairly.
I like choice in my MMORPG’s, even if that choice has disadvantages. That kind of choice is what I grew up with and what I prefer. It makes the choices I make meaningful. The parallel between choosing a class with advantages and disadvantages and a covenant with disadvantages and advantages isn’t lost on me.
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Why is it a wrong comparison in the context of min-maxing, utility, and aesthetic? Why did you choose to play a hunter over a fire mage? Please actually respond to the arguments. Don’t just make a blanket statement and not explain it.
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Well said sir!
Nice way to take quotes out of context, Ion has been wrong when it comes to system design before.
The reality is that Hunters DO have 3 specs and each spec is NOT a separate character.
No developer in any interview has stated that Classes and Covenants are supposed to be the same type of choice therefore it is unfounded speculation on your part.
You have completely brushed off concerns that I have brought up with multiple spec classes by saying that “Blizzard should allow different specs to join different Covenants” and not acknowledging that they wouldn’t allow that because it goes against what we have seen in the past, and that it would diminish the choice of choosing a Covenant. A Covenant for story purposes is a Character based decision not a Spec based decision.
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The argument isn’t that the devs claim that classes and covenantss are the same type of choice. The argument is that they are the same type of choice in the CONTEXT of damage, utility, aesthetic, healing, etc. etc
In other words, people pick specs to try a different playstyle and aesthetic out when in all reality, there are better specs to play. The same can be said about picking a covenant.
Are we really this worried that the difference in damage/utility between covenants is going to be a wider difference than different classes/specs? I don’t think so.
No. The problem is people will simply not take you over other covenants for pugs(same with class/spec). Simple as that. And yes, they do a crappy job with classes too, where the top performers are over 10% higher in dps.
“That only matters at the top”, that may be technically true but it doesn’t work in reality, because casuals care about class/spec more then the bleeding edge people.
People always pick the path of least resistance, you see this with classic WoW with rogue and warrior stacking. Blizzard needs to do a better job of encounter design and if they cant do that properly, unfortunately, the only other recourse is a form of homogenization.
Blizzard should be able to handle the math, they make enough money, they should be able to hire people who are really good at figuring this crap out. But for whatever reason they have shown an inability to do this.
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Time for the daily Ralph spam thread I see. Same as the last ten threads he’s posted. Yawn
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In terms of min-maxing Covenants are more like talents they add an ability based on which Covenant you choose, they change your playstyle in smaller ways than the way that of switching to a different class. Aesthetically they’re more like raid tier sets where each one has a similar theme that just changes based on the type of armor you wear. I chose to play a Hunter because I like bows mostly.
Unless they are the people that have 4 of the same class I highly doubt people will be discriminate that much based on covenant as they themselves will know they are sub optimal for some form of content.
They ll be forced to choose a covenant which means instantly they ll be sub optimal in some form of content, the group leader will now know that not everyone CAN have the best covenant because covenants are not talents.
I cant disagree with that, and I am honestly uncertain as to why they refuse to make big balance changes often when they can.
They literally created legion templates back then but refused to use them often and that is absurd