Okay you never said that people are bad cause they want changes for Classic. But you IMPLYING that people are wrong/bad by wanthing changes. You can’t deny that.
You literally said:
Because it’s all bad (about changes that happened to retail). Look at what’s happening! People see changes and cling onto accepting more change, until Classic becomes no longer Classic. We have people asking for Classic+ or TBC/Wrath 'cause obviously Classic isn’t all that suitable for them. That or history is repeating itself, and we’re doomed to repeat the same mistake and ending up with Retail, again. I don’t see how you can’t possibly see this.
Which IMPLIES that all who want changes which by your SUBJECTIVE views lead to classic becoming next retail = wrong and bad.
I can tell you that not all changes that happened to Retail are bad. You just elitists who just want to be right no matter the case. You don’t have middle ground, you are the peak of the arguments which you don’t have. Only “MUH FEELS” and all other people who don’t agree with you even on slight thing have no rights to want anything, cause they want GASP the changes!!!1
I’m not implying anything about people. Just the changes. The two are mutually exclusive.
Ah, here we go. We’re back to insults and mockery. I view Retail as bad, yes. Trying to replicate Retail features makes Classic less Classic/Vanilla. You cannot refute that. That is the objective. Any implication of change to/towards Classic takes away from the point/intention of Classic.
Say it with me now, any change to/towards Classic takes away from the point/intentions of Classic. Again, why do we keep wanting to add more changes to it? It makes no sense! If you’re here to maintain the spirit of Classic, you wouldn’t be advocating for changes, period.
Some arguments aren’t, but SSA are so commonly comprised of fallacious elements that it’s an informal fallacy in most cases. Most of the posts by #nochanges players literally consist of some form of “But it’s a slippery slope! One change will open the door to retail!”, which is a combination of false dichotomy and continuum fallacy. 15 years worth of expansions and changes happened between Vanilla and BFA. I’ve yet to see someone successfully link minor QoL changes to suddenly adding the 15 years changes, content, and rebalancing that lead to current BFA. It’s also rare to see these posts describe when WoW has reached “retail status” and different players with the #nochanges slogan often have different ideas of when that is.
There’s also no reason to take their opinion seriously if they fail to recognize their reasoning as fallacious. It may be spherical, but without any other evidence, it may as well be a tetrahedral.
IK you won’t believe me, like I said a lot of people using the “but it’s not even Vanilla, LOL” argument. If that’s the case, we get people like the OP, who I’ve proven is advocating for all changes. It’s happening in real time.
OP wants LFD, CRZ, shared mob tagging and the like. They don’t deny that. All in the name of “well, Classic ain’t even Vanilla, LOL”.
So one person advocating for all the changes means that Blizzard will suddenly add “all the changes” (wtf does that even mean? Can you list “all of the changes” that are currently needed to get to “retail”?)?
Seriously, Ezgg. Let’s have a conversation, in real time. I have a Discord we can utilize Voice Chat. I’ll still converse here, too. But, anyway:
It’s not just one person, but this talking point of “it’s not even Vanilla, anyway LOL” is spreading amongst other people, such as yourself. I just listed LFD, CRZ and shared Mob Tagging. OP listed Duel Spec, Barbershop, Achievements. We, also, have Sharding, LFR, PvP Servers not really being PvP Servers. Cross-Faction AHs in all Major Cities. You really want me to list them, all? Those are the ones I can name off the top of my head.
Oh, how can I forget about Personal Loot!? I hated it so much, I wanted to forget about it!
Of course. It’s extremely difficult to flesh out exactly what and where the turns are for things. I wasn’t necessarily trying to validate these arguments, in general, but rather invalidate the blanket claim that a SSA is fallacious by nature.
I do think that part of what we don’t see is that most people don’t try to avoid the “fallacious” aspect. Not in so much that they’re inherently wrong, but that the way they explain and come to their conclusion doesn’t hold without a much deeper analysis.
Logical fallacies are often tricky. Most people, in truth, don’t really think analytically in a way that naturally attempts to preclude logical fallacies. I think if someone who wanted to avoid that still wanted to make that argument, I’d be curious if they could make an effective one. We’re not usually in that situation, particularly on the forums, but SSA can be logically sound.
I mean, you said all of the changes. I bet even if you think you list them all, you can’t list them all. (which is my point: you’d be here all night and still not be able to define all of what makes retail retail.)
As far as it not being Vanilla, Classic is not and never really can be, now that it’s been established how badly Blizzard screwed up. I personally don’t think that really matters with regards to the discussion about whether or not to add QoL changes, but it does make the #nochanges thing kind of a meme when Blizzard managed to change the game in a way worse fashion than many of the changes you guys are worried about. I don’t really have an opinion on whether QoL changes should be added. I’d support dual spec being added at a price (500g?) but not enough to really argue over it. I mostly just wish people would argue against changes on the merit, or lack thereof, of the change and not on a tired meme slogan.
I have Discord but I’m tired AF. I passed out at my keyboard after we killed Rag and just woke up. Maybe some other time.
We’ve already established this talking point, and I’ve already expressed, numerously, how I’m using it. I just don’t want to counteract that with more changes. “Oh, it’s already changed? Well, better add more changes to it.”
Pointing on your LITERAL freaking words =/= aren’t moeckery nor insults. Wtf with your brain?
I made you a quote from your own posts in that thread you linked me. By your logic you are mocking and insulting yourself. But at the same time trying to make a victim of yourself. This is incredibly frustrating, cause whenever something going wrong and you can’t make an argument you start screaming “!AAAAH THEY MAKE ME FEEL BAD AND THEY MOCK ME AND INSULTING ME!!! HELP”. This is stupid. I will cease to answer you.
I hope this is some kind of trolling not very smart but effective one.
These are insults and mockery to my character and not objective facts about the subject matter, at hand. It’s OK, I can brush it off. I was just pointing it out.
you know , i find myself thinking “this could change and it would make my life easier.” and then i think it would ruin that sense of accomplishment for doing things the inconvenient way with all the messed up things classic puts in the way of things as part of the reward structure.
i think of it like alot of people think candy is good, and i agree candy can be super good, but when youre diabetic and fat candy isnt good, even the kind made for diabetics.
any more changes to make it “better” would be the sure fire way for a bunch of players to have a heart attack or a stroke from too much candy.
no , we dont neeeeeeed more candy. and wanting candy is fine just you have to realize the cost of such a decision.
If blizz changes Classic in this way, the atmosphere of the earth will ignite & burn away leaving the earth a barren wasteland. All so you can have dual spec? C’mon man!
Seriously though, I get that some people are very forceful about no changes. I attribute it more to lack of faith in blizzard than anything else.
That being said I’m against changes (for Classic) purely based on QoL reasons. Also after having played retail for years I expect blizzard to put in all kinds of QoL changes. Just think of how wow tokens could help the Classic economy!
What’s that, they said they won’t ever do that thing? Yeah, heard that one before
It’s only a fallacy if there isn’t supporting evidence, and we have 15 years of supporting evidence at this point. One change begets another. So no, I won’t relax.
You have the perfect reference in Retail WoW. Retail shows how not to do balance and evolve of the game. You should seek for make Classic better with fixes ans tweaks. But the moment it goes to “retail” you bring up the alarm and point on it.
The problem is none of you #nochangers can answer the questions about what exactly ruined retail except the obvious one (LFG system), which everyone understands and 90% of people doesn’t ask (10% are literally those who got used to it in retail) and which percent of little QoLs was in a blame for the downfall of the retail WoW.
Know why? Cause you don’t WANT to have these answers. You are like an ostrich, hiding your head in #nochange the more rational and smart people starting to question why this or that isn’t in the game, since it doesn’t ruin anything gameplay wise or/and completely optional and you wouldn’t be affected by it anyhow.
You afraid or can’t answer critical questions properly. And as I was saying before, you don’t have a middle ground, you see all stuff only in black and white. Where Classic is already in a lot of grayish colored palette.
I’m not a nochanges person, but I have a feeling that some people are legitimately worried what would happen if the current development team started implementing their changes to classic.
That team had utterly destroyed what this game was since WoD was released.
At least that is my friendly pre-work post. It’s not against the players as much as it’s against the devs.
No, what you actually have is 15 years of triumphs AND mistakes. Blizzard didn’t just set out to ruin the game.
And the idea that adding changes to a game would automatically make them make the exact same mistakes that hurt the game before; the idea that they didn’t learn anything is the fallacy.
Something like adding dungeon maps would in no way, shape or form hurt the game. In fact, logically speaking, once a dungeon has been successfully run, their SHOULD be a map.
The notion that adding something like that would lead to just adding everything else is all sorts of ridiculous.
There wasn’t anything for me to notice really. I played during MoP and thought it was one of the better expansions.
In fact, TBC, WotLK, Cataclysm (loved the leveling zones, and xmog, and catch up dungeons), along with MoP were wonderful expansions that are heads and shoulders above the last 3.
I played each of them and loved them, even with the changes. I was able to transition from a progression raider to a casual player and enjoy myself the entire time.
and I get tired of all you QOL’ers coming in here asking for QOL changes, enough already its getting tiresome… Talking about selling boosts, that garbage didn’t come until well past Wrath release. So folks could “catch up”… so that QOL came AFTER vanilla… so please just knock it off with the waaa waaa QOL changes waaaa waaa crying… Enough already just play the game.
(which is my point: you’d be here all night and still not be able to define all of what makes retail retail.)
