The Night Elves are leaving the Shadowlands empty handed

[Ethriel-elune]

(Includes 9.1 spoilers)

In BfA, the Night Elves’ home was destroyed, their zones were either taken away or destroyed and their people were killed.

There was no resolution at all in BfA, so the writers promised us that there would be something in Shadowlands, but it looks like the Night Elves will also leave this expansion empty handed, or actually even worse off than before.

Their souls were suffering in the maw, we knew that in BfA already. Many hoped that we could atleast free the Night Elf souls that were burned alive, but instead most of them were obliterated in the maw.
Judging from the numbers ingame, we saved less than 10% of those that died in Teldrassil alone. Around a thousand died in Teldrassil and we saved around a hundred in the Ardenweald campaign, and many more died in Ashenvale and Darkshore too.
This means that the fate of those innocents were killed was a tragic one even after their deaths.

Elune has also proven to be incapable or unwilling to save the Night Elf souls from the maw, something that Bwonsamdi could do (and did) for his people.

Furthermore, their justice has also been denied. In BfA, we forgave the Horde and let them get off scot free even though they still held some of the Night Elves’ lands (Ashenvale) and commited a genocide by burning Teldrassil.

We let them keep those lands and forgave them because we seemingly focused on Sylvanas instead but it seems like Sylvanas is also getting a pass.
This doesn’t really come as a surprise, because the writers have repeatedly expressed their stance about Sylvanas being not evil or getting a redemption, but now we also have canon evidence such as Sylvanas talking about justice in her raid fight, Sylvanas potentially getting a pass through that soul split thing, and Tyrande telling us that we will give up on justice now and focus on renewal instead. Also obviously, the Sylvanas book coming up long after her raid encounter where we learn about how genocide isn’t that bad if A) She does it and B) It’s targeted against Night Elves.

Something that is funny to me: How are the obliterated night elf souls from the maw going to focus on renewal?
Or those remaining few Night Elves that have no lands left besides a Darkshore that is surrounded by the Horde and other enemies.

The Night Warrior has also not seen a satisfying conclusion, because not only did she fail to save her people’s souls, she also couldn’t defeat Sylvanas in Ardenweald. Sylvanas ended up defeating Tyrande and getting her sigil through Anduin.
Tyrande only managed to defeat a Nathanos that was already heavily injured, that also planned his death, meaning that he’ll soon return as if nothing happened (as Ion also stated).
The Night Warrior plot also ended the way it started, in a cheap ingame cutscene, while Anduin talking to Sylvanas gets pre rendered cinematics.
Oh, and we also learned that Elune is not a goddess, but instead on the same cosmic tier as the winter queen, basically an eternal one. So the Night Elves’ religion was also proven as wrong.

I’m obviously not surprised about this, most of this was predictable even before Shadowlands, but now we’ve seen it play out: In summary…

• The Night Elf souls were obliterated for the most part, no freedom for them
• Tyrande gives up on justice, the Horde and Sylvanas get away with everything
• The Night Elves never got their lands back or a new home, Horde gets to permanently keep yet another night elf zone

The reason why I think they’re worse off than before is because before Shadowlands, you could hope to atleast bring Sylvanas to justice in a way, and hope to be able to free the Night Elf souls at some point instead of them being obliterated.

So basically, Shadowlands promised us some sort of positive moments and a resolution in a way, and it delivered more tragedy and negative things for the Night Elves as people, and it denied them their justice.

Truly a shame that the writers are this hostile against the most (or maybe second most) popular Alliance race.
What a horrible resolution, really. We wanted nothing but a few positive things, such as the freedom of our people’s souls, our lands back, or a new home, or Sylvanas brought to justice. And no, we never asked for the Horde to be annihilated or anything.
We ended up with nothing positive, and instead more negative things. Even though it wouldn’t have affected anyone negatively if, for example, we got to free the souls of the innocents.

This just proves that the writers aren’t even trying to hide it anymore, now everything is clear. Guess WoW will just continue without Night Elves now, as they’re no longer part of the game or the story, and have no zones and no home left.

[Irenaus-wyrmrest-accord (Irenaus)]

How much longer do you think will you keep an active account?

[Northgrave-lothar]

We could do a goodbye fireworks festival for them I guess.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

While I feel that there’s very little of value to playable Night Elves in Shadowlands given what I know so far, and while I generally sympathize with the sentiments behind this thread, I think that much of it is premature, uncited, and inappropriately uses predictions for facts. I don’t take pleasure in pointing out how, but I will - because facts and fairness matters to me.

@Ethriel-elune

their zones were either taken away or destroyed

Teldrassil was destroyed, Darkshore is back in their control. Ashenvale’s status is unknown.

@Ethriel-elune

their people were killed.

Technically correct, but there is an implication of magnitude that the canon established by Elegy does not support.

@Ethriel-elune

There was no resolution at all in BfA

The resolution was partial and doomed from the start from a sufficiency standpoint, however Darkshore did move the ball down the field somewhat. It certainly isn’t enough, but it wasn’t nothing.

@Ethriel-elune

Their souls were suffering in the maw, we knew that in BfA already. Many hoped that we could atleast free the Night Elf souls that were burned alive, but instead most of them were obliterated in the maw.
Judging from the numbers ingame, we saved less than 10% of those that died in Teldrassil alone.

We discussed the issue with the methodology on this twice before. You don’t get to switch counting methods when it allows you to inflate the numbers. If you employed the same proportional sampling method that you used for deaths as you did on the souls recovered, then you must arrive at the result that the overwhelming majority were recovered from the maw, on the order of 90% at least given that there must also be a deduction from the population of souls saved by maw walkers.

@Ethriel-elune

Elune has also proven to be incapable or unwilling to save the Night Elf souls from the maw, something that Bwonsamdi could do (and did) for his people.

Elune’s avatar in the Night Warrior is an integral part of saving those represented by the previous figure.

@Ethriel-elune

We let them keep those lands and forgave them because we seemingly focused on Sylvanas instead but it seems like Sylvanas is also getting a pass.

As stated previously, the status of Ashenvale is not known. As for Sylvanas, indications so far suggest that the raid is not redeeming or sparing her. Do the Night Elves get that resolution? No, and that’s a problem, but Sylvanas is not getting a pass.

@Ethriel-elune

Tyrande telling us that we will give up on justice now and focus on renewal instead.

Renewal is not an exclusive concept from justice. I’m skeptical that it will end that way, but again, let us not overspeak.

@Ethriel-elune

Also obviously, the Sylvanas book coming up long after her raid encounter where we learn about how genocide isn’t that bad if A) She does it and B) It’s targeted against Night Elves.

Just because a character gets a book doesn’t mean that they will be cast as heroes in it.

@Ethriel-elune

Or those remaining few Night Elves that have no lands left besides a Darkshore that is surrounded by the Horde and other enemies.

Darkshore is bordered by Ashenvale, whose status we don’t know, Felwood, which doesn’t appear to play host to either faction, and Moonglade. That does not suggest encirclement to me.

@Ethriel-elune

Tyrande only managed to defeat a Nathanos that was already heavily injured, that also planned his death, meaning that he’ll soon return as if nothing happened (as Ion also stated).

I’d like a source for Ion’s statement there, because so far Nathanos hasn’t surfaced, and you’d figure that if he was going to, he would have by now.

@Ethriel-elune

Oh, and we also learned that Elune is not a goddess, but instead on the same cosmic tier as the winter queen, basically an eternal one. So the Night Elves’ religion was also proven as wrong.

Sisterhood has no bearing on what cosmic tier Elune is on - not that tiers matter in the first place. Further, there’s nothing that I have seen, so far, that undermines Night Elven cultural practices, or their religion (something that I’m pleasantly surprised by).

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

Lordaeron and Quel’Thalas were destroyed in WC3.

WC3:TFT happens

WoW (Vanilla) happens

WoW TBC happens

WoW WotLK happens

It is only here that the Forsaken and Blood Elves “get justice” when the Lich King is defeated…

…oh! And it was a MHP that was up on top of ICC to deliver the KB. No Belfs or Forsaken in sight.

Teldrassil was burned at the beginning of BfA. We’re not even halfway through the next expansion. Your entitlement is brokering zero sympathy as usual.

[Grandblade-wyrmrest-accord (Grandblade)]

Touch grass.

[Ethriel-elune]

@Gantrithor-myzrael

…oh! And it was a MHP that was up on top of ICC to deliver the KB. No Belfs or Forsaken in sight.

And Arthas was still brought to justice, and even went to the maw. He wasn’t fully absolved of his crimes and got away with genocide like Sylvanas. And those that wanted to bring him to justice didn’t give up on it. And the writers didn’t say that he’s not evil in interviews. And the souls of his victims weren’t obliterated and tortured.

@Gantrithor-myzrael

Teldrassil was burned at the beginning of BfA. We’re not even halfway through the next expansion.

And yet, we have all the information necessary about the resolution. Also with the souls that were obliterated.

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

@Ethriel-elune

And Arthas was still brought to justice

4 iterations of the game later.

@Ethriel-elune

And yet, we have all the information

You have assumptions. Assumptions that have proven time and again to be false.

Keep lamenting your status though.

[Ethriel-elune]

@Gantrithor-myzrael

4 iterations of the game later.

Arthas also never returned as a hero after what he did to either the Alliance and he didn’t become a neutral hero. He also didn’t fly away or was forgiven in his raid encounter.

@Gantrithor-myzrael

Assumptions that have proven time and again to be false.

Except that everything is literally there in 9.1 and before. Feel free to point out what is wrong

[Grandblade-wyrmrest-accord (Grandblade)]

At this point, I’m pretty sure most of the Kaldorei fanbase wouldn’t claim you, and I can’t blame them for it. You are the epitome of absolutely everything that people despise about staunch Night Elf players - you have zero personality outside of a fictional race in a video game, you can’t go ten seconds without making a thread to voice the same complaint in different words, and you have zero capacity to actually voice your grievances in any kind of respectable or mature way. You give the race you love so much a terrible name, and you give the game as a whole an even worse one.

Grow up.

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

As usual every one of your continously repeated slate of complaints is either distorted, incomplete, or just plain wrong.

The Horde don’t have any more of Ashenvale then they did at the start. Saurfang was only interested on going through the place, he did spared no soldiers for occupation, so what the Night Elves held before they do now, although at somewhat reduced numbers.

You’ve also overlooked the expansion of Night Elf holdings in Kalimdor, several settlements in the Stonetalon Mountains, the regrowth area in Desolace, and the expanded Feathermoon Stronghold.

As far as hostility towards the Night Elves, no one outside of Anduin has received more cinematic attention than Tyrande of late. The writers seem to love working with the woman.

Night Elf souls HAVE been retrieved from both Torghast and the Maw… in fact they are the only retrieved souls that have been re-embodied as soul-shapes.

The writers only promised a continuation of Tyrande’s story. That they have delivered and it’s a story that is not over yet.

Did the night elves take permanent losses? Yes they did… so did every other Alliance and Horde race which have lost souls to the Maw. This is a the Crapsack World of Adventure, Not Happy Ending Storytime… if you’re looking for that… rewatch The Princess Bride.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

I think you are epitomizing what makes this forum as toxic as it has become.

I try to be fair, and in my mind that involves being critical of people who are on my own “side”. I did that above. I went point by point to explain why many of the arguments laid out did not work, and where they need to be corrected.

Just about the entirety of the body of your post meanwhile was a mean-spirited, personal attack.

I don’t agree with a lot of what Ethriel has to say, but I am asking that you retract this post. It adds absolutely nothing except to exemplify a brand of toxicity that we should be working to get rid of.

[Ethriel-elune]

@Drahliana-earthen-ring

The Horde don’t have any more of Ashenvale then they did at the start.

Except that they claimed it during “A Good War”.

@Drahliana-earthen-ring

You’ve also overlooked the expansion of Night Elf holdings in Kalimdor, several settlements in the Stonetalon Mountains, the regrowth area in Desolace, and the expanded Feathermoon Stronghold.

And yet, there are far too few left. Those places aren’t even for civilians, they are small outposts with a few guards. Their civilians were in Ashenvale, Darkshore and Teldrassil, all of which were wiped out.

@Drahliana-earthen-ring

As far as hostility towards the Night Elves, no one outside of Anduin has received more cinematic attention than Tyrande of late.

Untrue. Sylvanas had many more, Jaina also had many more during BfA. Tyrande never got a CGI cinematic, got 1 pre rendered cinematic where Nathanos mocked her and told her that killing him is just part of his plans and some bad ingame cutscenes.

@Drahliana-earthen-ring

Night Elf souls HAVE been retrieved from both Torghast and the Maw… in fact they are the only retrieved souls that have been re-embodied as soul-shapes.

And yet, only a small chunk of those that died were saved.

@Drahliana-earthen-ring

The writers only promised a continuation of Tyrande’s story.

Uh no, they promised that there’d be some sort of resolution for the Night Elves, only giving them negative things and tragedy is not really a resolution.

@Drahliana-earthen-ring

Did the night elves take permanent losses? Yes they did… so did every other Alliance and Horde race which have lost souls to the Maw.

Except that it’s the entire Night Elf race that went to the maw, and they never got any positive moments, and never got anything back that they lost, and also never got any justice.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

@Ethriel-elune

Except that they claimed it during “A Good War”.

We discussed this previously. This was one of many areas where Saurfang made a statement, a statement that he had no ability to know the truth of, in a book filled with instances of Saurfang saying and believing things that later turned out not to be true.

@Ethriel-elune

And yet, there are far too few left. Those places aren’t even for civilians, they are small outposts with a few guards. Their civilians were in Ashenvale, Darkshore and Teldrassil, all of which were wiped out.

Those thoughts were lifted from Anduin’s in-the-moment POV. Anduin also had no ability to know, and his personal thoughts are contradicted by the scale of the evacuation that Elegy portrays.

@Ethriel-elune

And yet, only a small chunk of those that died were saved.

This will have been the fourth time that I have reminded you that your methods of accounting to get here are inconsistent. Either you use the same proportional sampling methods for both instances, or find a new method to use for both. You don’t get to switch methods.

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

@Ethriel-elune

And Arthas was still brought to justice, and even went to the maw. He wasn’t fully absolved of his crimes and got away with genocide like Sylvanas. And those that wanted to bring him to justice didn’t give up on it. And the writers didn’t say that he’s not evil in interviews. And the souls of his victims weren’t obliterated and tortured.

Actually considering he might have gone to Revendreth if not for Uther, I think it is proof he might have been able to redeem himself. The entire point of Revendreth is that anyone can be rehabilitated. Hell, we have a world destroyed who became a Venthyr.

[Chronorabbit-azshara]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

I’d like a source for Ion’s statement there

Closest I could think of is:

There is certainly a chance. We’ll see for sure, I’m not going to give a specific answer to that but he said what he said for a reason.

© https://www.wowhead.com/news/shadowlands-storytelling-from-ion-hazzikostas-interviews-sylvanas-nathanos-319245

@Drahliana-earthen-ring

The writers only promised a continuation of Tyrande’s story.

To be more pedantic, among the “mistakes” of BfA not showcasing the events better was also what was mentioned. Somewhere in the Danuser interview to T&E: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/619631234

Summary: https://www.mmo-champion.com/content/9084-Shadowlands-Dev-Interview-Steve-Danuser

So, not showing properly the elven story was originally percieved as “we’ll try to fix the mistake”, but we likely going to get “let’s just pretend everything is fine”.

---

When it comes to OP, I’ll say that while the story does not shape up well, and the Night Warrior arc is an addition to “multi-dollar company” jokes, the name of the thread is easy to point to and prove being wrong just because the expansion is not over yet. I am not sure there was something mentioned that would not fit another thread with already a lot of discussion there.

---

gl hf

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

@Ethriel-elune

Except that it’s the entire Night Elf race that went to the maw,

Patently false.

@Ethriel-elune

and they never got any positive moments

Also false.

@Ethriel-elune

and never got anything back that they lost,

Also false.

@Ethriel-elune

and also never got any justice.

@Gantrithor-myzrael

Teldrassil was burned at the beginning of BfA. We’re not even halfway through the next expansion. Your entitlement is brokering zero sympathy as usual.

[Cursewords-tichondrius (Cursewords)]

@Ethriel-elune

Except that it’s the entire Night Elf race that went to the maw,

Oh boy. You are prone to hyperbole and willfully ignoring the truth… but this statement is just false at best, or an outright lie.

I can name a few Night Elves who haven’t gone to the Maw. Jarod, Malfurion, and most of the ones still alive on Azeroth. I guess Tyrande went to the Maw… but she jumped in on her own terms, and can go in and out as the situation demands.

@Ethriel-elune

and never got anything back that they lost,

They won Darkshore.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

@Cursewords-tichondrius

They won Darkshore.

I’ll make you a deal. If you give me three dollars, I’ll give you one.

Sound fair?

[Mercilas-scarlet-crusade]

@Ethriel-elune

Their souls were suffering in the maw, we knew that in BfA already

Don’t forget to add, that- after their souls suffered untold torments in the Maw, and were merged together, their own High Priestess came into the Maw and permanently obliterated their souls.