The Need to Go Fast — Leveling Dungeons and You

Community WoW Community Council
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Over the past few months, there has been threads popping up on the General forum about the ever-so increasing tendency of players to rush through dungeons… even the leveling ones.

Many players, including myself, have stories to share of a group biting off more than they can handle, which then almost always causes a wipe.

I know that Blizzard has attempted to “solve” this problem a few times in the past — most notably, by severely nerfing player power in Cata dungeons, fresh after the “AoE everything down!” era of WotLK instances.

The backlash of that was rather massive, and Blizzard nerfed the Cata instances — and ever since, Blizzard has been a lot more cautious about creating powerful dungeons.

But, the issue still stands: for a new, returning, or inexperienced player, running leveling instances can be a rather miserable experience. They’ve been forced to rush along chasing the veterans that they miss out on the chance to…

  • Look around
  • Learn the route(s)
  • Try out various strategies to tanking and healing (this is the best way for a player to learn)
  • Overall enjoy the experience

But with veteran players, there are also many players who enjoy pushing themselves — they know they can handle a lot at once. They know the dungeons inside out. They have fun rushing.

How could Blizzard solve this issue? Well, in one of the threads on the General forum right now, I saw a player post this brilliant idea which I love, so I’m quoting the player here:

I think that this is a genius solution. For veteran players who enjoy a more slow-paced run, or tutoring new players, they could choose the “slower” option. For new players who want to jump feet-first in the deep end and hit the ground running, they can choose the “fast” option. Veteran players can also go fast-fast-fast if they want to…

I really see that as a win-win for everybody. (Yes, there will be trolling, but this should never be a reason for not introducing a feature.)

Please, Blizzard, consider this!!

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Depending on how Blizzard implemented the requirements to join the fast pace dungeon. You would have many low geared players queueing for the fast clears in hopes of finishing quests or gaining massive experience quicker.

Many players would be in turn kicked from the group for not being geared or a present part of the fast clear.
It could bring a lot of really bad drama, as we know how people can be.
It would have to be brought to fruition properly.

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I whole heartedly agree with this.

Blizzard needs to come up with a solution to this “Push push push” mentality that became mainstay due to the mythic dungeons having timers. This mentality used to be rare, and tanks would be punished for doing it. Then came along the mythic timer, and now every dungeon must be run as though it was mythically timed.

I honestly think a good Cataclysm rendition of dungeons should be implemented. And when people try to do the “push push push” and fail due to how the dungeon is tuned that it should stay that way.

Tanks should have to pull dungeons mob pack at a time. Tanks should have to tank only the boss and watch out for all their abilities. Healers should have to heal even during those mob packs. and DPS should have to have situational awareness due to the mobs/mob density.

I saw it time and time again with the most recent timewalking experience in the Burning Crusade dungeons. Very very few tanks actually did the dungeons as they were intended, aka mob pack at a time and doing LOS pulls. All the others would just charge forth and hope the healer could keep them alive or that the DPS put out enough DPS to not have to worry about that. That’s not how that’s supposed to happen. I even had occasions where the tank was doing the way it was intended, but either the healer or a DPS thought this was “Too slow” so they started pulling for the tank. Which is just… God aweful behavior.

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Sorry, but I don’t think healers it should be made even harder for healers, its already a very unpopular role to begin with and tanks only increased in popularity when they started doing decent damage.

It’s dps that should be looked at, the general idea is that they should only focus on damage buttons and thats it, perhaps its time to get CC requirements back in the mix.

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That wasn’t quite my point (although I understand your reasoning!). I was more saying, “Why not give us the option to choose between queueing for a fast-paced group or a slow-paced group?”

Basically, expand on the existing LFD tool that already exists in-game.

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This separates groups even more, queue times can be already incredibly long. Perhaps this would work if Horde and Alliance will be placed in the same bucket.

The whole “go go” mentality is 80% a community cause and 20% Blizzard. The only way to go in a pace as you personally want, is add either an Explorer mode for dungeons, an NPC mode where you have 4 NPCs with you in a dungeon or be the tank yourself and turn off instance chat (not ideal).

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I think the NPCs could work for leveling normals, to let the player choose the speed for legacy dungeons to go at. FFXIV is doing something like this for their next patch on legacy content and we can see sometimes this technique in the Forbidden Reach dungeon. It is a shame we do not have automatic cross faction, cross phase/timeline to make dungeon leveling queues faster. (Even timewalking I can’t queue heroics with friends if different factions.) I believe questing has always been intended to be faster, so perhaps that is by design. It does also bring a question of whether or not leveling old dungeons is better in a group or solo, I think people would prefer shorter queues though.

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I would actually really be thrilled with a solo mode for dungeons where you have 4 NPCs with you and can do it yourself. Eliminates the need to queue and lets you go at your own pace. Kind of like the flashpoints in SW:TOR where you can do it with just your companion.

I’m chill with either type. I don’t mind being with new tanks or those who are careful and go at a moderate pace, and I’m okay with running behind a tank that has an appointment in ten minutes and tears through the place.

No one wants to heal. I know I don’t. I used to a long time ago, but not anymore. Going the NPC route would ease queue times if there was an NPC healer. It’s not a bad idea.

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It really didn’t. In Wrath people were tanking dungeons as DPS to get through them faster. Cata launch dungeons very briefly put a stop to it, but most people hated it.

That sounds unbelievably boring to play for everybody involved.

There’s no reason to do them ““as intended””, because they’re unbelievably easy. If the tank is roleplaying that the dungeons are hard and does 1 pack at a time, trying to LoS pull etc, I am absolutely going to pull as DPS because my Glacial Spike nearly 1shots trash mobs. I’m not there to spend 30 minutes on something that should take 10.

To make leveling dungeons not play that way, you’d need to make them harder (probably just buff HP/damage of everything, most dungeons actually do have mechanics), but that would have to be accompanied by significant XP buffs as well.

Not really. The dungeons are so easy that you can and should just hold W through the entire thing pretty much. That’s not something the community has any power over.

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The m+ timer mentality is definitely part of it, but I think the major contribution to people rushing through it is due to the huge amount of EXP you get for dungeon completion, can be like a level and a half when you’re low enough.

The fast pace is fine if everyone keeps up, no one gets kicked for being “slow” and there aren’t any wipes. it’s frustrating when it goes wrong though.

TBC Timewalking is probably the most oddly-tuned of all the timewalking dungeon categories. It isn’t as bad as it was initially post BFA squish (aka the the difficulty it had when launched lol) but it’s still the one I see most people fall over to because they LoS the healer instead of the mobs and expect to pull the map without repercussions.

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You’re looking at it through your 10 year+ experience, this is purely related to new players.

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Those new players are in the same dungeons as experienced players. It’s not a community problem that I end up in the same dungeon as the new guy, leading to a worse experience for both of us.

Separating it into 2 queues probably wouldn’t solve things either because, let’s be real here, most people would just select the one with the shortest queue time which makes that queue time even shorter (and the other one longer).

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But it is a community problem when a new player queues up as a healer and the tank pulls like he really needs to finish in 5 min, it is a community problem when a new player queues up as a tank and you as the DPS keeps pulling extra for him.

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No, it’s not. If the tank knows his limits and knows he can pull like a maniac, he should do just that. If I as a DPS know that the mobs in TW can’t hurt me and pull more, that’s fine. Blizzard putting people with wildly differing goals/skill levels into the same content is not a community problem.

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You lack sympathy and empathy for new players who can easily get stressed in those situations and it painfully shows. No point discussing this further when you only think about what helps you the most.

What a ridiculous thing to say… its a random queue, ofcourse they put people with different skills together, I am sure you have enough knowledge of the game and its mechanic what happens when it is decided to seperate, you just can’t expect new players to instantly be up to speed with the game and match the pace you want just because of your precious time. You can however expect people with way more experience to take a chill pill and take it easier for others to figure out stuff, it is called decency.

I’m sorry Tradu, I’ve always enjoyed discussing with you especially with our different views, but you’re just grasping for straws here, I know you’ve joined the Community Council to make the game better suited to yourself, but these are one of those moments that you have to look at it for the good of the game as a whole, and not the high end players who want to go fast.

Ofcourse if I can choose between a 10 min dungeon and a 25 min dungeon, I go for the first one, but I wont make it horrible for the rest of my party just because “muh precious time”.

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Not at all, I just strongly disagree that it’s a community problem that the game is designed in a way that puts people into these situations. If they’re not comfortable playing with much more experienced people, they shouldn’t have to, but unfortunately there isn’t any great way to fix that. If you put new players in their own queue, they won’t be exposed to all the benefits of playing with more experienced people, and their queue times will be significantly longer, for example.

No, actually, that’s being unreasonable. 1 new player’s desire to go slow doesn’t outweigh 4 others’ desire to go fast. Obviously it’s cool if people choose to help out the new guy by answering questions or whatever, but the new guy isn’t entitled to that special treatment.

Yes, exactly, because it’s an issue with the game, not with the community. They absolutely should try to make the new player experience better, because the game does a poor job of that. Other people trying to be efficient with their time isn’t the problem, the problem is that the new player is even put into that situation in the first place.

Going fast isn’t making it horrible for other people. Don’t be a dick obviously, but just doing your best to get through the dungeon as quickly as possible should be the goal (whether your best comes from 2 hours of playing or 15 years)

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Yeah, great first impression for people to game, this well surely make them stay!

You do realize that there are more ways to do a dungeon than pack for pack or pull everything till the boss? It’s not about entitlement or special treatment, it’s about having the decency to imagine how someone must feel if you pull for them, and make them panic (yes I know it is hard for some to imagine this, but people can panic when they’re healing or tanking).

You yourself can also make the game better as well, it’s not only on Blizzard, the amount of new people I see mentioning how they can’t keep up in the newcomer’s chat is staggering. Sadly, everyone has a responsibility in an MMO. If people want to be efficient, make a premade group, but just as well you cant expect everyone to cater for your ‘‘need for speed’’.

Just so you know, by your previous example, pulling for the tank equals being a dick. And no, not everyone has the goal to rush through the dungeon, that’s your goal, but you really can’t say that for everyone else.

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That first line is a hitter for me.

Tanking can be an enjoyable experience. It can also be a miserable hellscape.
I’ve played this for 16 years. I used to tank all the time until this new mentality started creeping everywhere.

Imagine being a new player in a leveling dungeon trying to learn to tank with no heirlooms, and you have the yahoo with full heirlooms just pulling everything for you. You can very easily see where they might start to stress out as if they try to do their job and just can’t keep up or die trying to. This leads to a very sour experience for them.

Hell, even I don’t like tanking in modern content because of the mentality of some DPS to pull for me and then when I survive the massive pull they did they now have it in their minds that I’m just being a “weak tank” or “wasting their time” when in reality I was stressing through that entire pull hoping I didn’t miss anything they pulled and absolutely having a hatred for that DPS or healer that did that. From that point on I have an eye on that person for the duration of the dungeon, and sometimes if they’re a repeat offender I let them reap what they sowed.

My “pack by pack” tanking is just as fast as pulling everything at the same time. Sometimes its even faster because of not having to wait for all the DPS to catch up just to AoE down a bunch of targets while the poor healer is stressing now because of the massive group. *Edit: It also seems like a lot of tanks forget that casters exist. I literally press the W key just trying to keep up so I can cast, and by the time I can they’re either already out of range or dead already from those who aren’t casters. The “Pack by Pack” way makes it so casters can also contribute, instead of just hitting the W key and trying to get in the small instant casts they have when they can.

There is a reason why tanks and healers are so low. Players make the experience more often than not a living hell for either the tank or the healer. This is a community problem, along with a Blizzard problem. It is both hand in hand. Both parties can fix it. However, given this late stage we’ve entered with this mentality, the only way forward for fixing is on Blizzard’s end.

Dungeons should tuned to be a challenge, not a walk through the park where the majority of players do absolutely nothing but hit the “W” key for its entire duration. That’s not fun. I don’t join up to do a dungeon or raid just to hit my “W” key. I joined to play my character.

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I have the power to do that myself within the game, I don’t need others to cater to it.

No, it’s playing normally for what I want to do in that dungeon and with how few new players there are, it’s a pretty reasonable assumption that that’s how the group wants to do the dungeon. If they ask me nicely to stop I’ll probably do so, but expecting people to play as if there’s new players in the group by default is incredibly entitled.

Yes, so the game should do a better job of teaching them how to play better. Ideally it’d be designed in a way that is less conducive to pulling everything and completing the dungeon as quickly as humanly possible too, but every way of accomplishing that makes the game less fun to play.

No. It just isn’t.

I main casters. I’m well aware how annoying easy dungeons are to do as a caster.

Yeah, the reason is that most people want to be the main character, not the supportive guy. That’s also why tanking has gotten slightly more popular recently because they just do more damage than most of the past (MoP being the obvious exception)

I agree completely, but that doesn’t help the new player really. Now instead of being overwhelmed by 5 packs at once, they’re overwhelmed by the mobs from just 1 pack turbomurdering them with mechanics instead. Dungeons being so easy that you can just hold W and pull the entire universe isn’t something I want to do in WoW (other games do it better, like D3 or PoE)

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We are talking about when there is a new player OR someone new to the specc, there is nothing entitled by that… Besides, if I would be tanking for you and you’re deliberately pulling for me, guess whose having those mobs on them? Not me. Unless you have discussed it and have MD, you do not pull for the tank, this has been the case since Vanilla.

They don’t even need to ask you “nicely”, because the sentence “could you please stop pulling for me?” Shouldn’t even be uttered at all.

You are throwing all these words like entitlement but is exactly how your posts are coming across.

It’s weird that you think that the way you’ve been describing how you play in random PuG dungeons is normal, because it really isn’t.

And you’re honestly taking what I write to the extreme, I’m not saying the party should be going one mob by one mob, let the new guy figure it out if he’s the tank, or let him ease in to healing if he’s the healer…

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