The major problem with M+ giving Heroic raid gear is that you get fully geared in 1 or 2 weeks

[Saereth-stormrage]

I would just like to point out that from the look of things there is only a single chest. Even if you raid and do M+ for 6 chances you only get one choice. Do both if you want to do the hardest content in the game and gear quickly with the most choices for your BIS gear.

Gear that can be farmed all day should not be beating out content that is locked behind a time gate. If you want to push 20+ keys or mythic raid do both types of content or you will be forced to wait for chests.

[Doinkde-zuljin]

Lots of players will get the +15 rewards from the weekly chest week 1. The majority won’t but the good, hardcore players will.

[Quixt-sargeras]

@Dartakan-ragnaros

It all depends on how Blizzard wants to tune them, 15 have been compare to 10 in the past, I think is safe to say this is going to be the case

So if +15 in SL is = to +10 in BFA 8.0

Then the gearing curve is even greater, many more runs to get to +15 than to +10

They are just stretching us until we break

[Abendroth-zuljin (Abendroth)]

@Corbendru-zuljin

Mythic gear from +20s if timed.

Easy

Ok. But put a hard lockout on mythic+.

Edit : (already brought up sorry. I’m playing catch up with posts)

[Corbendru-zuljin]

Yes, that has been discussed.
1 item lockout per week for mythic gear per dungeon

[Abendroth-zuljin (Abendroth)]

I guess it would work early expansion as they’re tough enough to balance themselves out. Not so much later though. By 2nd major patch, it might cause issue.

[Monoriw-illidan]

For M+ duh, this is a really dumb question. M+ is technically infinite in scaling you are limited by gear and skill if you can’t get the gear you need from M+ that means you have to raid for it.

[Argorwal-ysera (Argorwal)]

@Sarama-firetree

@Argorwal-ysera

Actually your party is locked into an ID with ALL dungeons at that level.

Eh, I’d say that goes too far, though I also think Mythic raid should lose that restriction once the top whatever’s are done

I also left out it can’t be cross realm for the first 2ish months as well.

[Argorwal-ysera (Argorwal)]

@Corbendru-zuljin

Yes, that has been discussed.
1 item lockout per week for mythic gear per dungeon

1 item chance per week per dungeon.

1 drop (20% chance) per dungeon.

[Jelybeantoes-moon-guard (Jelybeantoes)]

People should be able to gear to do the content they want to do by doing the content they want to do. That’s why PvP is in the toilet now, and will be even worse come Shadowlands, when the preferred form of PvP gearing will be paid carries for anyone not an elite member of a progression raid team.

[Jelybeantoes-moon-guard (Jelybeantoes)]

@Bobross-goldrinn-1034768

A major point that people miss is that “complete players” will be valued much more than niche players, in any game.

By whom? Not by other players. Somebody who is looking to fill a M+ pug doesn’t care about your PvP. They won’t care about your raid history if you have no raider io. Somebody who’s trying to fill a PvP group doesn’t care about your io.

Oh, you mean valued by the devs and given special accommodations because you think as a player who just started heroic raiding you deserve that?

[Abendroth-zuljin (Abendroth)]

Pretty sure they don’t mean pvp when they’re talking about “complete”.

[Twíst-proudmoore]

@Bobross-goldrinn-1034768

And then you start complaining about the lack of content and how the game is boring and you need a new patch ASAP.

Gearing through M+ is too fast and easy.

Given the vast amount of RNG in the game, you’d have to be INCREDIBLY lucky to get that much gear that fast.

You’d also need to be paying for carries to get max level rewards so quickly.

Mythic raiding is still relevant content, and given the limited number of pieces/stat combos in raid, it made sense to have high M+ keys give gear that could supplement.

Overall, it seems like the sales/carry community is going to love the impact of the changes since it’ll make heroic gear more impactful and increases the demand for them.

[Pandar-firetree]

@Argorwal-ysera

The step change in difficulty from heroic to mythic is by far the largest single difficulty step change in the game.

It also comes with many more restrictions such as a fixed raid size, raid ID lockout, and lack of cross realm.

Agreed. I think smart enhancements could help elevate other communities (Loot DR, or team-lockouts, etc). That said - people need to organize for high push keys, there’s several layers of strategy there, and team building. People arent pugging their way to 30 keys w/ random groups.

All of that said: targeting loot will be way harder in Slands as it appears now (to me), and will mostly be more random, which I don’t like.

Also - really fair points on inclusion metrics for players in Raiding. My questions to the friend above was mostly getting at the notion that’s thrown back at me a ton, which is “if you like it, you’ll do it without incentivization”.

I don’t think we agree on gear pacing, but neither of us have the data that Blizzard does. Hopefully they have good data science on it, as we’ve been biasing the data for years now with the loot systems in place; making it potentially difficult to understand what people do/enjoy nakedly, and what people do for the carrot

[Pandar-firetree]

@Mistyvixen-thrall

So… Would love to know what a solution is. What exactly are people seeking that would make M+ more valuable for M+ runners?

My ideas posted in other threads, to at least start the conversation, were:

@Pandar-firetree

alternative ideas in the weeks ahead. Some of those could include the following

• Increase the power of dungeon-loot in a way that scales up beyond 15. To keep this from impacting Raid encounters, consider creative solutions (outlined below)
• An Ilvl modifier that only applies to M+ (applied to dungeon gear dropped above M+15, that is ineffective in raid encounters)
• Dungeon Sets (though, may be tricky to implement with time to release)
  –
• To avoid massively quick gearing, apply Diminishing Returns to dungeon-drop loot chance for each run (also, potentially to each M+ level, if you want v high ilvl gear to be very difficult to attain). DR’s resetting weekly, essentially serving as “raid reset” but for the M+ community.

[anon85998724]

@Caithyra-stormrage

It’s just the sheer amount of runs you can do. You could do 8 hours a day of M+ dungeons all week if you wanted. Even if you fail the timer you’re still getting loot.

Thinking that everyone does this is unrealistic. You’re trying to make an extreme the norm.

[Corbendru-zuljin]

@Argorwal-ysera

1 item chance per week per dungeon.

1 drop (20% chance) per dungeon

1 item per group, which is a 20% chance, yes.

[Dartakan-ragnaros (Dartakan)]

The amount of players that do mythic raiding is even lower and more extreme, yet people keep saying they will be ruining g both pvp and m+ runs. Especially in the first tier where mythic raiding participation is at the lowest.

[Corbendru-zuljin]

Because there was always a decent alternative. Now there isn’t

[Dartakan-ragnaros (Dartakan)]

So 3 ilvs difference is going to push people into mythic raiding?