Whatever happened in Pre-History isn’t important.
We have to go in what the game is NOW, and NOW the precedent is that M+ is a valid gearing path.
And that’s being taken away from people who do that. Heck I haven’t ran a dungeon in forever and my guild finally talked me into trying it in SL. Why should I do it if the gear is no good?
You shouldn’t. It’s Raid or Die. WoD + BFA. The two most well received expansions in the History of Warcraft coming together!
I’ve got my 
ready for the few weeks after launch when this hits the general player base and people start dropping like flies. The only thing that will save them is another 6 month shop mount, and it’s going have to be a lot better than a flying boat or mechanical dragon.
Not immediately on hand, no.
Which is a problem.
So yeah, you’re basically giving a nice big middle finger to people who don’t want to raid. M+ doesn’t offer directly comparable gear to Mythic raiding, and there’s no reason for M+ end-of-dungeon to always be inferior to Heroic raid gear.
Yet there always has been and always will be gear you cannot get outside of a raid. So to claim that this is going to suddenly make raid gear relevant when it already was relevant for a few different reasons is disingenuous.
What a bunch of nonsense.from what i seen you can still get mythic gear it will just take longer and i don’t think it matters for people that only do dungeons they will still get what they want no raiding needed here.
It’s not even removing the gearing path, it’s bringing it more in line so it isn’t vastly superior to the other two end game, barring Mythic raiding.
It beats PvP and Heroic clear out of the water because you can get 460 or so within a week of getting to 120. We had someone do this every raid tier, they changed mains and I had the pleasure of watching it hit 120 on Tuesday and be raid ready the following Tuesday because all you have to do is hop into a bunch of M+. And you have that ability to, which he took full advantage of. Why is it that one gearing path should beat the others at the level most players play at? Should M+ be the end all be all to gear save for a trinket or two? Is that what M+ runners all want?
Subjective
No, I just think its better for the game.
There being good gear specific to raiding isn’t a bad thing, it motivates people to do the raid. Theres also gear in M+ you need to aim for like mecha ring set, geti’ikku, trinkets, and a few more weapons and such.
No, it’s not subjective to say that an alternative form of endgame should remain one.
If you can call my saying M+ should remain an alternative endgame subjective, then this is definitely subjective.
M+ has…
Specific trinkets
Specific ring combos from one dungeon set
Raiding has…
Specific azerite, some of which is completely unattainable for some specs through M+. [Specific trait combos that do not exist on the m+ azerite table]
Specific trinkets, where there are usually at least a handful of trinkets from the raid that overwhelm or at least stand equal to M+ trinkets.
Specific itemizations- this tier it was corruption and a unique azerite trait, last tier it was specific traits and unique bonuses on certain gear, last expansion it was tier sets, etc.
Mythic will still drop, at worst, the equivalent to the highest you’ll be seeing each week from M+. And the last two bosses drop higher than you’ll ever get in M+, period, without titanforging’s existence.
This change being aimed at the extremely small subset of people who plays enough to bypass Heroic raid gearing paths is a rather narrow target to try to hit, and it’s going to hit a lot more people than the intended audience in a negative way.
Since you do not have the evidence requested, would it be safe to assume that this was made up in an attempt to “win” a debate?
There is an old wives’ tale that goes something like “the proof is in the pudding,” I strongly believe that is in play here.
I mean, no. I just don’t have the quote on hand, and haven’t actually needed to bring the quote up in years.
You can believe whatever you wish. That is your problem, not mine.
In that case,
There was a blue post back when m+ was introduced where blizz stated they wanted to keep m+ gear inferior to raid gear.
Playing games with me does not validate your point. I admitted to not having the quote immediately on hand to provide. It’s okay, though, whatever helps you feel better about this.
This!
Also to anyone saying Heroic Raiding is endgame, it isn’t. Heroic raiding hasn’t been endgame since Mythic Raiding was introduced.
M+ was introduced as an alternative to all forms of raiding with a scaling difficulty so players could still get rewarded playing hard content in smaller groups. It’s more popular than any form of raiding but Blizzard is trying to neuter because “reasons”.
The only “game” at hand is world of warcraft. I simply asked for proof and you refused to give it.
This is how rumors spread.
M+ has a lot you need to pray to RNG for, like certain stat iterations on items that arn’t in raid. this new system in shadowlands will actually be better with the vault. Like M+ is still going to reward mythic raid level gear weekly with less RNG.
This is pretty much the tier set bonus of this xpac. like Dark Heart for example is pretty much the tier bonus for the raid.
This is how it should be honestly. having to pray to rng for the right trinket in the weekly chest is horrible.
This change isn’t intended to hit anyone. Its a change so that heroic raid isn’t completely invalidated in the first few weeks.
So you agree, then, that a variant form of tier bonuses still exists, and differentiates raid gearing from M+ gearing.
So you’re saying raid gear is more reliably acquired.
It is intended to hit people who are capable of spamming Heroic to outgear it and enable loot trading early. This same result could be accomplished by simply loot locking Heroic for the first few weeks. 
I agree with everything but this… I’d say it was a bad choice and doesn’t fit the direction players lives are going… Most of the people in my guild are young adults with kids, or just starting families. They were kids back when they raided actively. Now they just want something where they can get in, and get out but face challenges… and get compensated appropriately. These changes are pouring water all over that.
I never said otherwise.
yes as it should be, because if its any other way its too much dependence on rng.
This is good and why its healthy for the game, those people will get into raiding. I honestly think loot locking M+ weekly would help the issue as well. /insert smug emoji
But… I hate raiding… and I like doing difficult dungeons. Raiding is 1 hour of waiting, followed by 1 hour of group fails, followed by another hour of reforming the group. This isn’t fun.
M+ is clean and fast, and if the group fails, it usually falls apart and you get a new group and new dungeon. EZ PZ.
Oh, EDIT: And, before every raid boss “Make sure everyone watches this 5-10 minute video for this boss!”, for… every… boss.
Pushing +15-+20’s is “minimal effort”? What’s your M+ experience?
Raiding is pretty easy even at the mythic level. Organizing 20 people is the hardest part about raiding, and that’s what I would call “minimal effort”.
exactly raiding takes a lot more effort, so should it not reap better rewards?
Also im on board with higher keys like 25+ rewarding mythic level loot.