I have not done mythic raiding for several xpacs but still keep in touch with people that do… any mythic raider that doesn’t have multiple corruption sets is below average. Heck before I vendored it all I had infinite stars + twlight dev + IE setups
Even timewalking has specific gear setups to be optimal… its a question of what is optimal vs what is necessary… I think any mythic raider that complains about having too much optimization potential misses the point of the gameplay mode because at that point you are arguing for mythic raiding to be easier just so you can feel special about completing it.
Conceptually I dont have an issue with it… I just know and infer how bad blizzard is about balance and what will end up happening… think about corruptions bloodmallet was constantly shifting over what was BIS because blizzard cant balance.
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I can’t believe no one has even said anything about it, but here goes-
You’ve seen item level across this expansion alone go from 250 to near 500. Player in ilvl 470+ dominate in all content; PVP, raiding, you name it. There’s a massive disparity from the casual 445 to the hardcore 475. Never before has such a disparity of gear been spread so far across such a large playerbase. There is less and less prestige to have high end gear. So over the course of this 250-490, raiders have seen what? Five raids? yet M+ has seen the same content, which allows deeper and deeper dives into said content yet the rewards remain the same.
What I find strange is that most people are fine with it, they aren’t complaining about content because affixes get increasingly difficult. It’s not possible to run 20+ in 445 gear. Not even remotely. Why doesn’t M+ scale? Meaning that the higher you go, the better the gear.
The penalties are there, the random keys are there, there is no reason not to give M+ content a better carrot. What I mean is, the gear level should be set in stone from the get-go and Blizzard has the means to tune the dungeons so well it’s astonishing. Anyone who did Challenge Mode would attest to this. Currently people do go higher and take on more difficult affixes as the expansion goes on, what I’m saying is, that it should always be there, the difficulty and the rewards.
Many of the carry-me raiders would disagree, many raiders think what they do is far more difficult, the fact that M+ gets done at 30+ proves that it’s all about getting raid tier gear. PVP and M+ should have goals; do this, collect that and after a while here’s your reward. Blizzard is being lazy and uncreative with content and the game has never been about raiding and only raiding. Sorry to say it, but that’s a reality.
I think M+ gear drops should scale with difficulty, beyond anything we’ve seen. It should be offset in PVP by not being able to be used. Rated BGs should have their own gear for Rated content and there should be PVP gear for BGs and gear for raiding. Currently, it’s all about raiding and that’s a very narrow view for a very large consumer base.
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You get these Mythic guys wanting to lord over all the content. It’s so bratty and selfish that I’m quite shocked Blizzard enables them. Blizzard managed to make Rank 13 last 2.5 Tiers of content. You earned it, it was difficult. Why not give players avenues to dominate their own realm of gameplay? It’s a very narrow series of hoops to have to run through and to any veteran raider it’s not that difficult, the difficulty is getting other slobs to jump through hoops and pay attention. It caters to a mindset that relies soley on playing one character for an entire expansion. I play all classes and I’ll be damned if I’ll leave any of them to rot just so one can be some overpowered one-shot monster in BGs. Tired of seeing top tier M+ or raiders in BGs and my own one thread that keeps me playing is starting to break. Things need to change, Blizzard needs to change itemization without constantly using gear disparity itself as a marketing tool.
It would be trivial for M+ gear to scale down for raiding, just as it would be trivial to make ALL gear scale down or up for PVP. BGs should be about the player, the class and not the gear AT ALL. This has been done and is possible. I wouldn’t mind seeing level 50s able to join BGs with level 60s and have the same stats. The fun is the PVP itself, the rewards just aren’t there if you do BGs all the time, which is very bad for business, it really is.
You can’t make players raid. You can’t. You can however, make them quit. This has been going on for a long time and I"m a very patient person. VERY patient. I’m almost at my wits end with it. I wish many could see the business model and realize they are being herded into raiding. You’d quickly see through my eyes.
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The game is quite literally directed by one.
if raids werent such boring content maybe more people would do it. M+ is more fun than any raid will ever be.
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475 isn’t even hardcore. A single 15 per week, 5 mask visions, after a few weeks, you’ll be 475 too.
Nothing kills a game faster than forcing people to par take in a facet of the game that they may not enjoy. If I have to Raid to PvP then raiders should have to PvP to raid at a high end level. I don’t understand why I should be forced to play, what is to me, some of the most boring slogs in an old MMO to ensure I have a chance in PvP. Seperate the communities and stop trying to make WoW a melting pot of end game content because people don’t like it.
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Let’s get something straight here. Mythic+ scales infinitely so by definition it is “artificially” harder than mythic because numbers get to a point where only certain class combos and strategies allow you to win. This is the kind of difficulty that is lazy to design and tends to alienate players the most at the top end. It is for this reason I think blizzard is deciding to limit the rewards mythic+ gives because believe it or not it’s usually just adding a ton of stress for mythic raiders to farm it out because the loot from mythic+ is infinite.
If they were to increase the rewards, they would be adding even more stress into pvp and mythic raiders causing them to farm out the higher keys to go into mythic raids or pvp arenas in tip top gear before it even releases. This is a problem that doesn’t seem to have a solution other than by introducing mythic+ only loot. Honestly this route wouldn’t be so bad if secondaries weren’t in the way of your gearing progress.
In the end the very fact that mythic+ can be farmed is what keeps it from rewarding more gear for everyone to have.
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They’ve had so many chances to do things right and keep things separate so the different end game content can be their own trees of progression. It’s so dumb they haven’t gone this route yet. There’s so many possibilities that could be explored with this route such as entirely different talents, unique stats, special buffs. It’s all being squandered in favor of letting everyone melt together into 1 system of progression.
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I’d love to blame it entirely on Ion “Number one Raiding Boy Scout” Haziwhateverthehellhisnameis, but sadly Blizzard has had a throbbing erection for Raiding being the end all be since the game came out.
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Not sure if that was intentionally ironic, but that was the most conceited, smug, “Looking down upon the masses” thing I have ever read.
? You get a mythic level piece of gear every single week if you do a +14. That’s not quite zero. People might be more open to the arguments if everyone was being a little less dramatic.
According to wowprogress only 13% of players have cleared Mythic Carapace, so if this system were in effect during current content, then only 13% of players would have gear superior to the weekly cache gear.
Big thing I’d say is that with a lockout of once a week versus the infinite runs available for M+, Raiding should definitely have the best gear. In terms of availability versus reward, M+ was incredibly off kilter, and gave amazing rewards infinitely, which devalues Raids for gearing and raid gear in general.
Imagine if they simply said “we’re tuning Raid gear to give loot a tier higher than M+”; simply put if you make is sound like a buff it puts it into context a lot better: Making raids a stronger option overall since gearing from them is limited.
So do raiders, who also get mythic gear FROM RAIDING.
I have also raided on and off since vanilla and I believe that having more options is better for the game.
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Having done both 25s and 12/12M this tier, high end m+ easily takes the cake as the more mechanically challenging game from my perspective. You basically have to be on point with meeting strategy and DPS checks to time keys, something that mythic raiding only requires for the first few weeks of a tier (or in some cases, the last boss). Raiding has a lot more breathing room for individual players to be unoptimized or make mistakes.
That being said, individual player skill isn’t the only requirement to raiding successfully. Finding 25 competent raiders who can meet a schedule (yes, 25, because you’re not going to get the same 20 people to have 100% attendance), the backend management of a guild, and everything else makes maintaining a high end guild a part time job in some cases. That extra effort is why raiding has to be the be-all end-all for pve gear; it would die rather quickly if you could bypass all of that boring background work with ease.
“Kill raiding then” one would probably say at this point, but the problem with that is how flawed mythic plus actually is once your key levels get really high from a numbers perspective. From rogues being mandatory to shamans not having a great dungeon kit in general, there’s so much wrong with class balance in mythic plus that the classes would have to be drastically redesigned or homogenized to make it work. 20 man raid groups and raid design in general give every class much more leeway to work around their shortcomings and play on their strengths, and they’re what the classes have been designed around from the beginning. This game at it’s core does not work with mythic plus being the main endgame content.
All that being said, my guess is the reason ilvl specifically is being targeted has nothing to do with making m+ inferior to heroic raiding. The difference between the two is too small for that (seriously, its small enough that socketed m+ gear will still win out in most cases). Odds are, it’s literally just to prevent mythic plus farmers from trading a bunch of heroic loot to guildies / each other two weeks into a tier. With forging and corruption gone, blizzard has been setting up shadowlands loot to be distributed very slowly compared to previous expansions as a way to keep people playing. Which is probably for the best, all things considered.
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You’re right, OP. There are way too many players in the game now. Raiders are the only ones who should be entitled, and everyone else should be purged from the game so you don’t have to share pixels with them.
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Not everyone gets a key every run, failed runs are penalised heavily. Thus, they are not ‘spammable’ by any means. You are very much forced to make the best of what you’re given, affixes also have a massive impact on the timing of the run.
Again, expecting people to play to a style you play isn’t exactly conducive to fun or immersive gameplay. Many simply don’t like raiding, it’s a case of been there, done that and of my many friends over the last 16 years not ONE of them has raided the whole time, in fact I think only a handful bother with Mythic content in raids because of the gear they can carry into PVP and M+
For some, the motivation to raid and ability to commit just simply isn’t there, for you to argue that raids should be the be all and end all is just narrow minded and ignorant of some players that have been around for sixteen years.
TBH it’s mostly the RNG loot system and how stat distribution isn’t solid. You could get an item, but the preferred stats are terrible, so that’s a very gambling way of doing content which many dislike. The removal of changing stats on gear was a terrible idea, the whole thing is just a massive carrot on a stick which the bright players or veterans can see clearly.
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