You missed out on the decisive part: Murdering her people.
Druidic by gift during the war of the ancients. The Kaldorei were druidic before and not a justification given during a war, its an act of interest for the sake of self preservation. It doesn’t give them something in common it gives them an incentive to continue fighting the legion and preserving Azeroth, which belongs to all races.
Shamanism really isn’t nature in the traditional sense, yet the Elements make up nature. If you’re statement was the case the Twilights Hammer clan/cult would be the heroes of Azeroth and not its greatest enemy. Because it is the Agenda of the Twilights Hammer to return Azeroth to the elements; a disaster for us all.
In regards to Humans, the Harvest-Witches of Gilneas and the Drust of Kul’Tiras says otherwise. Not to mention, Humans have had contact with the elementals since the first war with the Conjurers Water elementals.
During WC3, the Kul’Tiran Hydromancers speak volumes as to how attuned humans are with nature. It may not be Kaldorei levels, but it goes back long before the dark portal.
Given the nature of man that is the process of becoming. Suffice to say that is his job. It’s silly to complain otherwise.
The day Kaldorei become Horde is the day the Israelis become Palestinians. Its incredulous that you’d think a graphics and lore update of a 17 year old game that is still being bought and played is going to be an engine for your ultimate WoD style alternate Azeroth?
Traumatic enough to set the societies apart, and harness in the Emerald Nightmare.
Except time is irrelevant when it involves a crime. Especially when that crime leads to greater calamities. This is inpractable and detracts from the war the Orcs have with the humans.
Only in a utopia, and only if no permanent damage has been done. Death is permanent Except for diety and demon status.
Likewise nations are composed of people, who have people concerns that drive the political motive of that society. This applies to every societ. To pretend it doesn’t matter in the Horde/Kaldorei relationship is out of context. Just like utopias take the human elements out of context. Which is why every single utopia that was ever planted withered and died before it even sprouted above ground.[quote=“Imerus-moon-guard, post:412, topic:252611”]
There’s nothing to be gained by giving in-depth analysis of various historic events in what is just a poorly disgused gish-gallop
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Gish gallop is the persuit of a utopia: Literally what blizzard would be persuing if the nelfs even share a meal with the Horde. Furthermore to state history is irrelevant says more about your argument than the racial/political relationships manefested real and in game. History is there for a reason; its a catalogues of facts, trials and effects. To discard history on either side of the page is to dispense with context. If you take world of warcraft out of context you take the game out of connection to its playerbase. The rest is self explanatory.
This isn’t westworld where our toons are autonomous beings. We actually have to log on to move then around.
Then you’d know th e Kaldorei joinong, even fraternizing with the Horde is out of context. Furthermore the notion that humans have no connection to nature is at best misguided. The Conjurers project it, the Hydromancers prove it and the Harvest Witches cement the issue.
Humans being druids before shamans says enough. And there still isn’t Orc druids, neither Kaldorei shamans. The elements are their own entity, they speak and grant as they please. Nature on the other hand us there for the willing; the Orcs aren’t willing.
God willing The Kaldorei will never be Horde, can never be. While the Horde can content themselves with crusty Nightborne and skinny Sin’dorei…
I think, as many others have mentioned since the event, that Blizzard didn’t think the War of Thorns or the Burning would have the effect that it did.
I don’t think they predicted how much it would rile up night elf fans - against the writers/the game instead of against the Horde (though still causing plenty of animus towards the Horde playerbase) I’ve talked about it in other threads, but I think the writers have a different perspective over what the Kaldorei have on paper vs what their experience feels like, and judged from there that they could stand to lose a bit more.
I think they followed the story tropes of the other massacred races (blood elves, gnomes, somewhat trolls although their situation has less of a story presence for some reason) too closely. The previous times, the massacre happened at the hands of NPC races (troggs/murlocs) that the player can slaughter wholesale with no repercussions, or during a campaign where the player wasn’t invested in their own unique character (playing Arthas through the Fall of Quel’thalas.) This time, the massacre occurred despite the unstoppable Legion-destroying murderhobos on the defense, and at the hands of a playable faction (leaving many of their players unhappy that they had to go along with it), without any notable Horde regret or outspoken dissent (other than Saurfang and the few presented as working against the will of the people) - making it look like the Horde is as omnicidal as most of the NPC villains the player has been allowed to destroy, but with the PC protections which means the Alliance can’t get that level of revenge. (Or at least feel like they can’t. If Blizzard does make the Horde into destroyable villains on the same level as the Legion or the Scourge, I think they’ll be causing a lot more new problems.) Basically, the older stories are backstory, while the new one is (to steal a phrase from a more jaded poster) telling one faction that you didn’t clap hard enough, so now go listen to the screams of dying children because we decided you weren’t strong enough to save them despite your best efforts that you weren’t allowed to give.
I think that as part of issue 2, the writers lumped all night elves together instead of considering the reactions of having so many night elf -civilians- die. And their -children-. Horde and Alliance soldiers fight and die to each other constantly - it’s a tragedy, but each side (even only mostly) sparing the other side’s noncombatants is a big part of why the factions feel like they can and should team up to fight the villain factions which definitely don’t spare civilians. And, because so little dissent/regret was written for the Horde, and Sylvanas was noted as having the support of the people even after the Burning (and the screams of the dying night elves were described as being audible to the Horde on the beach, so there’s little room to argue that they didn’t know what they did afterwards even if they didn’t know it at first), puts the Horde in the same category as these expansion villain fodder. So, if the Horde is now as destructive - as cruel, as likely to slaughter fleeing innocents - as the likes of the Legion, then how and why should the Alliance go back to the status quo of wagging their finger at the Horde and working with them again?
What saddens me is that I think a lot of this was due to cut content - I think the Horde was supposed to have a reaction to the Burning, just as I think Ashvane was supposed to have an explanation for why she’s suddenly standing next to the naga and ordering them around, but the story got rushed out without it. However, without those notes of Horde regret, with only the comment that Sylvanas has the support of the people, it looks like the entire Horde is as bloodthirsty as the near-mindless demon-raged orcs. And it seems like a lot of people on both sides are really angry about that portrayal.
Blizzard will have a doozy of a time trying to pull themselves out of the hole that the Burning of Teldrassil turned out to be. But I don’t think they’ll try. They wrote it as a blast of shock value, with accompanying tearjerkers to get the players invested, and I think they’ll put as little thought into wrapping the plot up.
I fully expect they’ll either ignore their presentation of the whole Horde army’s willingness to follow Sylvanas (or tweet that only 10% of the Horde followed her, long after the fact), or give her an “Azeroth is free!” moment. And I expect they’ll be surprised and frustrated (and/or dismissive) when many people complain about it.
How so? In Classic we’d be down one Battleground, but they can put capture the flag anywhere. Beyond that, we wouldn’t have missed out on much, as for example of alternate possibilities, the Cataclysm revamp in Kalimdor with no Horde attacking we could have the exact same quest gameplay play out with Old God minions attacking. We’d still have a game, so I don’t really know what you’re talking about.
You’re right because they don’t care. It’s been pointed out before by others but this is Warcraft, this is ultimately its heart. It’s a big disgusting fascist pile of gobbly goop about how genocide is epic, how non-euro coded peoples are cartoonish barbaric savages who can never be trusted, how women leaders are usually cruh-azy and emotional.
It’s the whole logic of the games universe, beginning with the Orcish invasion. Orcs (refugees from a world dying from climate change and political turmoil) being written as genocidal maniacs who are hyped up on drugs and want to kill white people (Humans)
I have zero patience for people that want to tell me I should be happy with the Burning of Teldrassil because “negative happens in stories” when the past 9 years of story have been over whelmingly negative with little no good moments to experience.
Sorry I’m not a human fan. My favorite race being used as a wheel house of suffering so they can have their victories doesn’t fill me with faction pride.
No, I just don’t find killing in self defense necessary of forgiveness.
Yes and no. They already had practices of nature magic via Cenarius some time before then, just not true Druidism. Either way, a longstanding similarity between the races in their culture. That’s absolutely something in common.
Again, yes and no. Obviously it isn’t the same as druidism focusing on Life. But most forms of shamanism (Orc shamanism and Tauren shamanism specifically) do focus on a degree of cooperation, harmony, and understanding between forces. Which has some overlap with some aspects of druidism.
The Twilight’s Hammer is a more-so an Old God cult than an elemental cult. But I was speaking of the traditional forms of shamanism, not niche corrupted users. Much like Nightmare druidism is a negative compared to normal druidism.
At that point in the lore, neither of those were really a thing. And both nations in the current lore at that time were not in the Alliance.
No it doesn’t. In WC3, Hydromancers were just mages. They were no more in-tune than any other wizard.
Overrated is overrated. And it is no surprise his overstepping draws a bad fanbase.
It is baffling that you are so incapable of grappling with what a hypothetical is.
No it wasn’t, you are arguing circularly. Again, they barely ever mention it.
It is absolutely relevant when weighing the severity of the act. If someone stops someone from leaving a room for one minute versus not letting them leave for thirty years, these are in-equivalent. Cenarius being ‘dead’ for a lesser than great length makes it not as big a deal had he been gone much longer or forever.
Not really. You need to read more fantasy series.
Also untrue. Discounting forms of necromancy, true resurrection in Warcraft does exist.
You are right, but I’m not pretending it doesn’t matter. I’m presenting a straightforward realistic hypothetical alternative.
Gish galloping is an argumentative technique, so that comment doesn’t really make sense. But no, at the time, it would have been far from utopic to imagine the Night Elves and Horde together at that period. Because the issue against it is being greatly exaggerated.
Again, you do not understand what a hypothetical is. I don’t claim all history is irrelevant. But in this pretend hypothetical, things would have happened differently. So citing things that happened in a hypothetical where things happen differently does not make any sort of case. It just blows my mind you cannot grasp the idea of an imaginary scenario.
Nope, I know it was well within the bounds of the story at the time. And I think more-so than compared to the humans.
Sure, again, not my stance. Which was that the humans of Stormwind at that time (and humans in the lore at that time) had a much lesser connection to nature than Orcs, Taurens, and Trolls. That’s true by their various culture practices.
Again, Harvest Witches weren’t lore at the time of the hypothetical. And Hydromancers are mages.
I can’t think of one lore example as far as mortals go. The powers of Anduin,and Naaru together couldn’t do more for Calia Menethil other than make her a new kind of zombie.
The Spirit Healer Valkyr do and the Chronicle confirms that’s canon.
Not sure Medivh is mortal or not (though, not a demon or god), Aegwynn brought him back from the dead.
Jin’do devoured enough souls in the afterlife to do it.
That’s all that comes to mind off-hand. Personally, I assumed the Calia thing was done on purpose.
Seemingly Cycle of Hatred and the Ultimate Visual Guide say it was a resurrection. But that would take some digging. It is certainly possible. Though, his story is so uncertain right now that it probably won’t meaningfully matter unless he’s big in some Shadowlands expansion.
Honestly yes, part of the problem is that they had originally planned on High Elves being part of the Alliance while still in production of classic WoW and then ultimately deciding on the Night Elves. Because of that, Night Elves turned to filling the role of basically being friendly Wood Elves that were peaceful and good friends to the Humans, Dwarves, and other traditional fantasy races. In a way you could argue that was a subversion in itself though, because Night Elves were something of a stand-in for Drow and were made good instead of being evil or brutal like Dark Elves in most fantasy are.
I would say another problem is those more good and peaceful noble Night Elves do have their audience in the community as well, there are just a good amount of players that enjoy the Night Elves for what they literally have been in the game in contrast to the other segment of the fanbase that want brutal vicious dark elves that give no quarter to their enemies. I happen to sympathize with both camps on the issue, though I also feel like it is just the constraints of the gameplay that can’t allow Night Elves to pay back their enemies to the extent that I wish they would. It just can’t happen and it sucks, and it’s just another example of how the faction system has become seriously flawed and outdated the more we’ve been through the game with it.
I know it’s opening another whole can of worms but I honestly wish the Alliance had just gotten High Elves and have Blizzard funnel all of that “friendly to Humans and Dwarves” motifs into them for that side of the playerbase to enjoy whereas the Kaldorei should be more aloof allies who will unite with the Alliance when the chips are down but nonetheless employ methods and have philosophy that don’t quite sit well with the rest of the Alliance despite shared goals of protecting the world.
Like it or not, your stance is out of context and so is your prospective on the lore as a whole. Just like your Hydromancers stance dispenses with the fact they’re the very same tide sages we see in bfa. This is what we call cherry picking.
Your lying, that is exactly your stance and you can’t defend it because your explination is so out of context it beats WoD story telling. You can’t pick and choose, just like the tauren druids were a retcon, to pretend the experimentation and proliferation of nature based magics while trying to defend a retcon that you can’t even come to grasp with is dubious at best. Its like your trying to rewrite the lore from wota to present.
More so, less then, colorful words that contribute naught to your argument at all. The fact is they’re humans and in tunen with nature. It didn’t have to be Malfurion levels, but humans been in contact with nature sine wc1, when Orcs were using demons.
I think you don’t understand your whole argument is out of context. And you’re basic understanding of civil and political dispositions towards violence and destruction of property follows this trend.
Later says more about you than it does about the writing.
Calling upon an alternate universe to save the shambles of a hyperbole is hilarious.
Hyperbole isn’t an argumentative technique: its wasting space.
Realistic and exaggerated are polar opposites. Especially when time increases value, not diminishes it; your utopia doesn’t exist and is boring at best: counter productive.
Your presenting a realistically hyperbolic fantasy. Hyperbolic because your dogma would require not one but multiple changes in not only circumstance, but psychology and disposition. Disposition that makes the Orcs and the Horde what they are and the disposition that made the Kaldorei as is. It wouldn’t be the world of warcraft because neither side would be warriors or civilly aware. Such naivete contradicts thousands of years of existence for both races, and their presence on an alien planet on another one.
When it involves gameplay. Nobody would bother killing anybody otherwise. Once again, an out of context statement.
No offense but Thats what you’re for since you’ve offered nothing but a fanciful parable thats out of context to the identity of not only the plantif but the defendant, even for the univers were this all takes place.
Were not talking about obstruction and abduction but assault, burglary and murder. Because thats exactly what Thrall’s forays into Ashenvale are, were and have amounted too. To state anything less is either lying or delusionally out of context regardless of the circumstance.
They don’t have to, its well understood and drew the attention of higher powers.
If i were you, I’d be more concerned with being in context of what i was talking about instead of making arguments for outcomes that wouldn’t even be possible on a kindergarten play ground.
This hypothetical argument your trying to legitimize is silly, because alternate realities are silly when they take out of context the psychological make up of interested parties. Your not the first person to bring this up; probably won’t be the last. But Warcraft 3 ruined all of that and vanilla cemented the rest.
I was referring you to Jordan Peterson because you have an obsession with alternate endings. You have that obsession because you have a problem with results. Fyi, Hypothetical is Jordan Peterson’s specialty. If the man’s research is too sensitive for you to watch, that may be apart of your problem.
Part of your problem because your concept doesn’t fit in the world of warcraft; or the real world for that matter and its adding up.
Tide Sages, your welcomed to your opinion but it doesn’t hold water. Because even in a magical world you have to understand something to use it. That says enough for attachment to the elements and their use by humans.
Not true and irrelevant. Irrelevant because the practice of Harvest-Witches and the Drust predate the Alliance of Lordaeron; or in our case the Alliance of Stormwind.
Its been a while but in either story lines it isn’t mentioned how old the practices of Harvest-Witches and Drust were. We do know thay Kul’Tiras takes its name from the Drust who ruled there (hence the name) and Harvest-Witches hail from a region that was always shady until the Graymane wall fell down.
Furthermore, its pretty narcissistic to pretend to know how much of the lore Chris Metzen had written compared to what has been established so far. Just like your favorite Kaldorei/Tauren druidic affiliations were a retcon. There currently are (7) different manifestations of Elves so far in Azeroth. Its rather neat that the original writers at blizzard expand upon the different sub ethnicities of the humans; Thats not fantasy by the way.
Not really, the two go hand in hand. Just like we seen or Gorgrond, the purpose was to break down the world to the point the elements went back to their direct warring states. The old gods were just another factor of that elemental state and probably gave form to the elements of life (tenticles have allot in common with vines.) This is especially true with Naltharion the Earth warder, and why his part in the Twilight Hammer was so significant. Before then, he was a Horde hero in wc2. Because the whole purpose was to break Azeroth down to its raw elemental form. Something both the Old Gods and Sergeras were trying to do, but for different reasons.
In regards to the flame druids, i would say they were technically mage/shamans at that point
Because they’re drawing the direct power of the elemental Ragnaros and use it directly in their fashion of thought.
Isn’t that funny, because even in the warcraft universe understanding and harmony are the prerequisites for access and use of magic. This is synonymous with even the arcane.
The elements were there before there was life on Azeroth. And unlike Druidism or the Arcane, Shamanism revolves around permission for use; kinda like the light both bear similarities in that regard. Furthermore, both the Elements and the Light existed before there was life, and both are meritorious in acess and use.
Therefore shamanism is very different than Druidism; regardless of appearing related.
It is a true retcon, and doesn’t pitch any different than Tide Sages/Hydromancers, Drust and Harvest-Witches. The magic was accessed, and practised without proper understanding.
The purpose of Metzen’s work probably was to demonstrate the planet of Azeroth is magical and the peoples therein have access to that magic on a varied and justified degree.
Its not self defense when its not your home. The Horde were trespassing, knew they were trespassing and persisted anyway: guilty. I’d hate to see you in a civil courtroom.
Also forgiveness by whom? Because only a psychopath demands recompense from his victims. I guess that hypothetical isn’t working out after all…
The factually of the matter is this. The Horde, like it or not, Daelin or not committed a grave error. Not only did they commit an error, they followed it up with a series of irrevocable crimes.
Even though it is inferred during the dunding of Duratar that Thrall moved beyond the gaze of the Kaldorei after Mount Hyjal, it didn’t remedy the fact Thrall didn’t demolish Splintertree post or Kargathia keep. Not only that, but Thrall sanctioned further expansion into Ashenvale, even though Feralas, another and just as ancient Forest with less than half the Kaldorei population as Ashenvale, would have been more ideal, but less convenient. Theres the hypothetical for you. Because unlike Ashenvale, the Tauren have dwelled in Feralas for quite some time. Thrall may have negotiated to move his people down there and be out of the way of Admiral Proudmoor, Tyrande and the Kaldorei for the rest of their days. But thats not what happend thats not how violent people think or behave. And even though Thrall was an exception, he like every ruler appointed or elected has to appease to his populace to garnish consent.
Furthermore, to relinquish property through use of force or coercion is a political and civil guillotine for whomsoever is in office. At the end of the day, Tyrande has to account for the dead. Has to account for lost posessions and the death of Cenarius. She, nor we didn’t know he was coming back. In classic Malfurion returned to the Emerald Dream, and both the druids amd the priest hood was cut off from their whereabouts.
Therefore there is no room for hypothetical in the past, little room for it in the future; and that doesn’t concern Night Elves.
Medivh could have warned Thrall, but he’d probably would have turned towards Tanaris and Jaina would have returned to Kul’Tiras instead.
They aren’t the same, though. Hydromancers were literally wizards. That’s what they were referred to as. They could cast the mage spells Sleep and Polymorph. This connection to nature just wasn’t there.
‘A group of people ignorantly wandering onto unmarked land is the same as a person wandering into your house’ is the naive take.
There aren’t changes required. The Night Elves have allied with past enemies that they’ve fought before. And the Orcs have allied with past enemies that they’ve fought before. It within the bounds of the setting.
No, it is given in several explicit aspects of lore as I listed. It is just quite difficult.
Not too sensitive, lol. Just way overhyped by people’s first step into that sort of stuff. And largely grabbed on by people looking for a strong post-hoc rationale for certain things.
The problem is that your view of World of Warcaft just doesn’t fit with what the lore was and that you cannot grasp a hypothetical.
No it doesn’t. Most shamanistic tradition does not support returning the world to some elemental chaos. Those that do are niche corrupted sects like Nightmare Druids.
No, the forces, application and culture are definitely more alike than the aspects applied to arcane magic. Of course they aren’t literally the same, but you’re over-blowing the differences.
It was unmarked land. You don’t get free reign to kill people on unmarked land, even if you own it. And sometimes even if it is marked. I’d hate to see you in any capacity.
Let me show you how to engage in a hypothetical.
Sure, Thrall could have gone to Feralas instead. It would have been more convenient and more ideal. He chose Durotar not because his people were violent, but because he wanted them to live in penance for their actions in the First and Second War. But I think that was a mistake.
That sure was easy.
Ultimately, the Orcs, Tauren, and Trolls had a bit more in common with the Night Elves than humans did. They only had a small greater divide than the humans did as far as past issues. And there was an entirely reasonable route for the story to allow for them to ally at that point.
This in think where blizzard misspoke and ran with the wind. Because including cities and towns of the Cenarion Circle there are 23 villages and towns acroas all of Azeroth that are Kaldorei. This is important, because this isn’t lord of the rings or warhammer. The Kaldorei people weren’t/aren’t buched up in a single massive forest at one corner of the world. Ashenvale, Darkshore, Stonetalon Mountain, Feralas, Blade’s Edge Mountains and Wetlands. All these zones have different climates and villages size usually larger than Dolanaar, but smaller than Astranaar with few exceptions.
Furthermore, the sudden mass migration of Kaldorei people to a single location from all those places in response to a threat that was heading to a currently uninhabited zone (Silithus) has more plot holes than an abandoned and damage fishing net.
I’ve always taken what was written by Blizzard with a blank page, a pen and a pair of spectacles. Because it has become very obvious someone is wearing their shoe backwards while trying to write the next lotr fanfic while working for blizzard at the same time.
Dont think so? Look at the armor Kaldorei set’s for Darkshore. They look like the high/blood elf armor sets with purple and gold instead of red and gold. The Sentinel/Kaldorei colors are purple and silver. Blizzard didn’t even get the colors of the moon saber right. And their new Saber models look like starving abandoned cats.
Correct Kaldorei armor doesn’t have any gold: (im sorry it wont let me post links to the wowwiki page.)
we even playing WoW anymore? Is this lotr online or annother game with elves?
