The Kaldorei Conundrum

[Wickham-vashj]

Darnassus burns. Nazjatar is a zone with tons of missed potential for night elf lore. Val’sharah and the return of the Nightmare could largely be summed up by Malfurion and Tyrande’s laughable dialogue and Ysera’s death (though the latter was touching, it ultimately was yet another loss for the night elves).

Tyrande’s quest for vengeance and the Darkshore Warfront are a puddle of water in the barren desert of quality lore for the night elves since arguably Warcraft III. Of all the missteps, missed potential and flat-out failures to continue their storyline in a meaningful way, playing through Nazjatar was the final straw that made me reflect on this . . . and reflect on a couple of questions - which I put to the forum now.

Firstly, where did Blizzard go wrong with the night elves? What were the biggest mistakes that led to the savage, intriguing and unique kaldorei of Warcraft 3 turning into the purple high elves we have had in recent years?

Second, how does Blizzard fix this problem? Is there any hope for the night elves heading forward for their lore to be salvaged, with the Nightmare and now Azshara mostly dealt with?

I’m curious to hear from you all, but especially the night elf fans. Being a part of these forums over the years I’ve seen countless posts which at the time were complaints about the direction of the kaldorei . . . though now (searching through the archives) they read like a documentary of their downfall. It’s truly a shame to see such an exotic and dignified race have their story progression, what should’ve been their glorious time to shine in the spotlight, botched again and again.

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Leave your comments & opinions, but as always, keep it civil.

-Wickham

[Syiax-azralon]

I’m here just to say that Conundrum is a nice word to say repeated…

connundrum, conundrum, conundrum

it remembers me of the Lexicon from elder scrolls in septimus voice

oh the memories…

[Adelenay-wyrmrest-accord]

I don’t think it would feel as bad if the bad bits about their lore were spread out to other races. Your examples are good and i’ts all on one race. They keep trying to do stuff to nelves but none of it is done well but if we didnt get a bad mal and tryande bit but instead a bad dwarf bit, or bad human bit, the pain of nelves wouldnt be as pronounced.

I say spread the bad around because there hasn’t been a lot of good added to races. The lore for ARs don’t count as lore for their base race. I don’t think blizz knows what to do with the race to pull it up. WoW lore has tied them way to strongly with druid lore.

They should never have focused on it so heavily, or focus on it harder in wc3 so we didnt get a wrong representation of what they wanted the nelves to be. Also don’t be a wuss and give them a win in Darkshore, I never believed in the Horde bias until BFA but it feels strong. Can’t take away from horde unless they want it to be a “win” for them. Blizzard needs to break away from this faction balance belief.

[Lumie-cenarion-circle]

Three things, I think.

One, they were nerfed hard between WC3 and WoW, going from a major independent power to just another Alliance member state, lowering them from a “faction” to merely a “race” (more on this below). From a meta perspective, it seemed they were rewritten to be much “nicer”, more civilised, less savage, to better fulfil some classic elf tropes embodied more by the high/blood elves in this setting.

Two, they, more than any race in the game, have suffered from the concept of “neutrality”. Nine out of ten times, Blizzard does neutrality by taking Alliance-based institutions, divorcing them from the Alliance, and shoving Horde members into them. They essentially did this with night elf culture, trimming away a lot of what made night elves night elves (Cenarius, the full might of nature and its allies, the race’s grip on Kalimdor, and even half of their leadership) and letting everyone play with it. This has been rectified in recent years, especially with Malf, but still.

Three, geography. They live next door to the Horde’s main power base, and apparently whenever the latest Horde bad guy needs some villain points they look next door and beat up the night elves. Garrosh cut his teeth this way and Sylvie smashed his record. This one I take the most umbrage with. The night elves are so often presented as victims - no more egregiously than in BfA, where the race becoming victims of genocide is significant mostly in how one dude feels bad about it - and so rarely get to triumph. I worry quite a bit on this point, especially with the “red Kalimdor, blue EK” disaster of an idea I wouldn’t be surprised to see happen.

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

One, they were nerfed hard between WC3 and WoW, going from a major independent power to just another Alliance member state, lowering them from a “faction” to merely a “race” (more on this below). From a meta perspective, it seemed they were rewritten to be much “nicer”, more civilised, less savage, to better fulfil some classic elf tropes embodied more by the high/blood elves in this setting.

In short, to be playable instead of the essentially monster race they were during WC3.

[Poised-moon-guard]

It’s not just the night elves, is the thing. The night elves are just the most apparent victims of it. The current writers have a very clear lack of passion or downright disdain for the races that are perceived by them as naturally peaceful or lawful good. Night elves aren’t supposed to be naturally peaceful or lawful good, but because of the years of defanging, that’s what we have now as what the writers see.

Night elves have gradually been given a more civilized and refined air, becoming more typical wood elves and more in line with what high elves were. You can see this even as far back as Tyrande’s Cata model. Look at that model and tell me it’s in line with the WC3 vision of night elves, hell, compare it to her WC3 cover. But the consequence of that is the night elves were basically domesticated to the point of disdain from the writers.

You can see this with draenei as well. WoD was basically the draenei getting stomped on by orcs until the Alliance saved them. The warlords were all hyped up, despite being basically monsters with few redeeming traits, while the only draenei to get one was Maraad. And in the end, the orc that literally commanded the deaths of thousands was let off the hook. Or in Legion, when the story of the draenei was hijacked by a group of more militant, ‘badass’ draenei that weren’t naturally forgiving and peaceful. Yeah, let’s make the leader of the Aldor an innkeeper.

The writers like dark and metal races, or races that are easy to write. Night elves and draenei are neither, therefore they get punted around as victims for the big conquering races, and then hung out to dry.

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

Three, geography. They live next door to the Horde’s main power base, and apparently whenever the latest Horde bad guy needs some villain points they look next door and beat up the night elves. Garrosh cut his teeth this way and Sylvie smashed his record. This one I take the most umbrage with. The night elves are so often presented as victims - no more egregiously than in BfA, where the race becoming victims of genocide is significant mostly in how one dude feels bad about it - and so rarely get to triumph. I worry quite a bit on this point, especially with the “red Kalimdor, blue EK” disaster of an idea I wouldn’t be surprised to see happen.

Now that it’s done, the Horde will have to pick on someone else when it next needs to flex it’s conquering muscles.

[Kastrieren-moon-guard (Kastrieren)]

Blizzard needs to break away from this faction balance belief.

The faction balance is the only thing keeping this game from being too Alliance-centric. Without it we might as well delete the Horde as a faction and have everyone play Alliance. Then we’ll have a game everyone wants to play: LOTR Online.

I believe the biggest problem Blizzard had with implementing the Nelfs in the story is their forced humanization of the entire race. Everything the Nelfs do can be rationalized in an OOC human point of view. Before, that wasn’t the case. They attacked the Orcs and Humans on sight without even giving them a warning. Why wouldn’t they talk to the races like normal people? It’s because they’re Nelfs. Where did their hatred of all things arcane go? I was thrilled to see Garrosh’s Horde actually hate warlocks, but I’ve never experienced that when I played a mage in Nelf land.

Blizzard actually got the Orc concept of honor to be different than the human concept of honor, which I think it’s a good thing. It can’t be rationalized if we didn’t grow up in their culture.

[Poised-moon-guard]

Blizzard actually got the Orc concept of honor to be different than the human concept of honor, which I think it’s a good thing. It can’t be rationalized if we didn’t grow up in their culture.

I agree with most of your post but let’s be real, I don’t think even the orcs can rationalize their own concept of honor.

[Trivelfrank-wyrmrest-accord (Trivelfrank)]

I forget who said it exactly but I somewhat agree with that person who said Blizzard hates Night Elves because they are uniquely a matriarchal society composed of women who lead it and are majority the warriors of the nation. And that Blizzard writers get some kind of thrill from tearing it down and destroying them into helpless victims.

Not to mention I truly believe Blizzard wants to replace Night Elves with the “Nightborne” on the Horde. You want to play Night Elves with a story we care about and focus on? The Horde is there waiting for you. That kind of thing.

[Thalondir-moon-guard (Thalondir)]

Three things, I think.

One, they were nerfed hard between WC3 and WoW, going from a major independent power to just another Alliance member state, lowering them from a “faction” to merely a “race” (more on this below). From a meta perspective, it seemed they were rewritten to be much “nicer”, more civilised, less savage, to better fulfil some classic elf tropes embodied more by the high/blood elves in this setting.

Two, they, more than any race in the game, have suffered from the concept of “neutrality”. Nine out of ten times, Blizzard does neutrality by taking Alliance-based institutions, divorcing them from the Alliance, and shoving Horde members into them. They essentially did this with night elf culture , trimming away a lot of what made night elves night elves (Cenarius, the full might of nature and its allies, the race’s grip on Kalimdor, and even half of their leadership) and letting everyone play with it. This has been rectified in recent years, especially with Malf, but still.

Three, geography. They live next door to the Horde’s main power base, and apparently whenever the latest Horde bad guy needs some villain points they look next door and beat up the night elves. Garrosh cut his teeth this way and Sylvie smashed his record. This one I take the most umbrage with. The night elves are so often presented as victims - no more egregiously than in BfA, where the race becoming victims of genocide is significant mostly in how one dude feels bad about it - and so rarely get to triumph. I worry quite a bit on this point, especially with the “red Kalimdor, blue EK” disaster of an idea I wouldn’t be surprised to see happen.

THANK YOU.

I find that a lot of people blame being part of the Alliance as the main problem, but I disagree, and I think number 2 among the points that you brought up is severely overlooked. The entire night elf culture was diluted in order to give room for the Horde, and it doesn’t help that they’ve entirely re-shaped night elf lore to the point where everything that made them unique is of little consequence. The allies in nature such as the mountain giants, dryads, chimaera, etc were all written off as an alliance of convenience.

It doesn’t matter if you have the strongest druids in the world on your side if they’re just going to sit on the sidelines and outright NOT get involved when their people are being invaded and killed, writing it all off as “petty faction squabbles.” Malfurion stood up in the War of Thorns, but it was too little too late by then.

As for how Blizzard could fix the issue… I think instead of trying to re-direct Kaldorei rage at the Alliance for not being able to save them from a Horde diversion-turned-blitzkrieg, they should actually re-connect with our savage roots in a way where we’re among the staunchest enemies of the Horde, particularly with all these “neutral” night elf organizations picking a side in the story, because as it stands, the Cenarion Circle cares more about Hemet Nesingwary and the fauna of Outland than they do about Ashenvale, Azshara, Teldrassil and Darkshore. I’m getting really tired of seeing Cenarius, all his children and the many iterations of the Cenarion Circle finger wag at me about how they don’t take sides and that I shouldn’t fight the people who burned down my character’s home.

[Kastrieren-moon-guard (Kastrieren)]

I agree with most of your post but let’s be real, I don’t think even the orcs can rationalize their own concept of honor.

The Orcs aren’t a monolith. That’s so great about them. Their honor is so specific to Orcs that non-Orcs can never understand it. Each individual Orc can have a different set of beliefs compared to their racial leaders.

I forget who said it exactly but I agree with that person who said Blizzard hates Night Elves because they are uniquely a matriarchal society composed of women who lead it and are majority the warriors of the nation. And that Blizzard writers get some kind of thrill from tearing it down and destroying them into helpless victims.

I’ve never saw that. The matriarchal theme was thrown under the rug when Blizzard decided to let male nelfs become priest and female nelfs become druids. Now they’re just like any of the playable races. No sexual division, they just happened to have a female faction leader and their guard NPCs are female. Is it sexist to say that Blizzard hates men because they keep killing male villians instead of female villians?

[Trivelfrank-wyrmrest-accord (Trivelfrank)]

I’ve never saw that. The matriarchal theme was thrown under the rug when Blizzard decided to let male nelfs become priest and female nelfs become druids.

I don’t think they threw it under the rug seeing as it was alluded to in game on WoW as well. All the guards of Darnassus were female. The Sentinels are largely represented as females. But Blizzard is careful in how they portray their disdain for it because they used a female character Sylvanas to be the one to go all crazy and burn Teldrassil down instead of some macho Horde character.

Also I’m not saying this is exactly what I believe of why they’ve treated Night Elves so badly in the story. I don’t know why they do what they do to Night Elves. But it’s certainly a noteworthy consideration to me of why they’ve treated Night Elves this way.

[Kailothal-wyrmrest-accord]

There are a few issues the Kaldorei have had. I think one of the largest no one has really addressed yet is they tend to get cast into a “survivors of a long dead empire” role way too much. It be like if in a story a few Atlantians survived their island sinking and and rebuilt their own unique culture… but every time they were brought up it was more about lamenting how great they used to be instead of how much they have worked to remake themselves.

I think this “lamenting what was” theme has carried into how the writers view them, as they have been slowly collapsing Kaldorei land holdings for years now, playing up the tragedy of it all. In vanilla they basically held everything north of Stonetalon without any real dispute… by BFA they came to a final turn of the blade, effectively wiping any real established Kaldorei infrastructure and culture out and reducing them to weepy hobos on the Stormwind street corners.

The solution is sorta simple; They need to stop using Kaldorei as a proverbial tragic exclamation point in their stories, and instead give them some story room to be depicted as the people who they have become.

…problem of course is after BFA they are nothing but a walking tragedy. I am pretty cynical they can actually fix the damage the writing of over a decade has wrought.

[Trivelfrank-wyrmrest-accord (Trivelfrank)]

I think this “lamenting what was” theme has carried into how the writers view them, as they have been slowly collapsing Kaldorei land holdings for years now, playing up the tragedy of it all. In vanilla they basically held everything north of Stonetalon without any real dispute… by BFA they came to a final turn of the blade, effectively wiping any real established Kaldorei infrastructure and culture out and reducing them to weepy hobos on the Stormwind street corners.

That’s something I’m looking forward to in Classic WoW is how much territory a Night Elf presence is seen in Kalimdor. It will be nice to actually feel like as an Orc entering through Ashenvale or to Stonetalon Mountains from the Barrens that I am putting myself in danger by traveling through. Rather than just seeing a Horde footprint everywhere and destroyed Night Elf towns as we have now in retail WoW.

[Galenorn-wyrmrest-accord (Galenorn)]

Firstly, where did Blizzard go wrong with the night elves? What were the biggest mistakes that led to the savage, intriguing and unique kaldorei of Warcraft 3 turning into the purple high elves we have had in recent years?

Most will probably say it was in putting them in the Alliance. But, to me, the Warsong made that the logical course of action. For me, the beginning of the end was the neutering of the Alliance narrative. Once upon a time, the Alliance was formed in response to external threats, and… not much else. It was a constant challenge to hold together in the face of its own internal political intrigues and competing agendas.

And then, suddenly it wasn’t. And savage Elves who use Orc heads as ritual reagents were an ill fit for the NuAlliance’s “love, peace, and gryphon grease” narrative. So, they were defanged, and civilized. And nerfed, so that they would actually need the Alliance.

Second, how does Blizzard fix this problem? Is there any hope for the night elves heading forward for their lore to be salvaged, with the Nightmare and now Azshara mostly dealt with?

I’m not sure it can be fixed. But, in the spirit of think it can, it’d probably be best to start with baby steps: competent wins against their enemies. With not of the damsel in distress overtones. And, as the Legion, Nightmare, and now Azshara are off the table for now, that leaves the Horde. They need a competent, and decisive answer for their own genocide.

I don’t think it would feel as bad if the bad bits about their lore were spread out to other races.

This would also help alot. I realize that, as one of the planet’s most ancient and prominent defenders, they’ve drawn the attention and ire of global and cosmic threats, like the Old Gods and Legion. But others have also defied them. I also know that, being so close to Orgrimmar, they seem the natural recipients of the Horde’s aggressions. And yet, the EK is home to two of the Horde’s most morally dubious races. But, besides Gilneas, the Forsaken haven’t really made moves on the continent, besides consolidating their hold on eastern Lordaeron (and the Blood Elves, nothing at all).

Two, they, more than any race in the game, have suffered from the concept of “neutrality”. Nine out of ten times, Blizzard does neutrality by taking Alliance-based institutions, divorcing them from the Alliance, and shoving Horde members into them. They essentially did this with night elf culture , trimming away a lot of what made night elves night elves (Cenarius, the full might of nature and its allies, the race’s grip on Kalimdor, and even half of their leadership) and letting everyone play with it.

This is also a problem. Along with Night Elves with legitimate grievances against the Horde, like Leyara, being villain-batted, and sacrificed on the altar of neutrality.

while the only draenei to get one was Maraad.

Maraad really got me hyped, only to be let down. Being serenity and forgiveness is alright for Velen, himself. But I was hoping to see militant Draenei, and some of that Eredar arrogance. Zealous hard-liners, intent on meteing out the Light’s justice. And I got yet more damsels in distress, and “Draenor is free”.

Even the Lightforged are somewhat failing to deliver on the premise, even if only through their lack of a presence.

Yeah, let’s make the leader of the Aldor an innkeeper .

I’m just glad they remembered she existed. It’s not a luxury often afforded to non-Humans.

[Kailothal-wyrmrest-accord]

And yet, the EK is home to two of the Horde’s most morally dubious races. But, besides Gilneas, the Forsaken haven’t really made moves on the continent, besides consolidating their hold on eastern Lordaeron (and the Blood Elves, nothing at all).

Thing with the Sin’dorei is once the sunwell was reignited that was it for the edgy, scrappy do-whatever-it-takes-to-survive version of the race. They have mostly just turned back into High Elves culturally, aside from apparently being a bit more sullen in temperament and retaining a grudge at the alliance races.

[Kaileena-the-scryers (Kaileena)]

One, they were nerfed hard between WC3 and WoW, going from a major independent power to just another Alliance member state, lowering them from a “faction” to merely a “race” (more on this below). From a meta perspective, it seemed they were rewritten to be much “nicer”, more civilised, less savage, to better fulfil some classic elf tropes embodied more by the high/blood elves in this setting.

I got to watch those missions on YouTube and it’s a complete difference then the night night elves that we get in wow. They are much more laid back and peaceful just to fit the bland Alliance narrative of peace and justice.

Two, they, more than any race in the game, have suffered from the concept of “neutrality”. Nine out of ten times, Blizzard does neutrality by taking Alliance-based institutions, divorcing them from the Alliance, and shoving Horde members into them. They essentially did this with night elf culture , trimming away a lot of what made night elves night elves (Cenarius, the full might of nature and its allies, the race’s grip on Kalimdor, and even half of their leadership) and letting everyone play with it. This has been rectified in recent years, especially with Malf, but still.

It was do unnecessary to start inviting all these difference races into the circle. Addy third point it’s like a free for all. Druidism is one of the central focuses of culture for a reclusive people and its been watered down to invite anyone who wants to become a druid. Apperantly Cenarius forgave the Orcs and all of our allies are now friendly with those that invaded Ashenvale. You don’t even see any help from Cenarius’ children until the warfront. It makes no sense.

Three, geography. They live next door to the Horde’s main power base, and apparently whenever the latest Horde bad guy needs some villain points they look next door and beat up the night elves. Garrosh cut his teeth this way and Sylvie smashed his record. This one I take the most umbrage with. The night elves are so often presented as victims - no more egregiously than in BfA, where the race becoming victims of genocide is significant mostly in how one dude feels bad about it - and so rarely get to triumph. I worry quite a bit on this point, especially with the “red Kalimdor, blue EK” disaster of an idea I wouldn’t be surprised to see happen.

I don’t even have anything to add to this one.

[Kastrieren-moon-guard (Kastrieren)]

I don’t think they threw it under the rug seeing as it was alluded to in game on WoW as well. All the guards of Darnassus were female. The Sentinels are largely represented as females. But Blizzard is careful in how they portray their disdain for it because they used a female character Sylvanas to be the one to go all crazy and burn Teldrassil down instead of some macho Horde character.

Also I’m not saying this is exactly what I believe of why they’ve treated Night Elves so badly in the story. I don’t know why they do what they do to Night Elves. But it’s certainly a noteworthy consideration to me of why they’ve treated Night Elves this way.

It might be alluded in the past, but it’s not as heavy handed as it is with the Naga. I’ve posted before that many big bads were male. Does that suddenly make blizzard sexist towards men because male NPCs are the loot pinatas?

Although the Sentinels were primarily female Blizzard has added male Sentinels in all their skimpy glory to the Sentinal ranks. This shows that the male female culture divide is being cut, which saddens me because it was so interesting that they actually had the feature from WC3.

It’s my opinion that you’re just projecting some misogynistic accusations on a company that has been very pro female. H*ck, they even had a Women of Warcraft segment on WC3.

If you want to complain then complain about Tauren or any race Blizzard created that isn’t based on non-European culture. Is it me or do they all get the short end of the lore stick. Whenever we hear about them it’s always about how they’re getting massacred.

[Galenorn-wyrmrest-accord (Galenorn)]

Thing with the Sin’dorei is once the sunwell was reignited that was it for the edgy, scrappy do-whatever-it-takes-to-survive version of the race. They have mostly just turned back into High Elves culturally, aside from apparently being a bit more sullen in temperament and retaining a grudge at the alliance races.

Up to a point.

Then you have Lorash being 13 year old, MCR edge incarnate. And who knows how much worse that’s going to get, now that he’s undead. And, they had no qualms about dirtying their hands in an attempted genocide purposely designed to mirror their own. And seemingly no regrets about doing so, with Lor’themar wringing his hands over whether he can even get the Blood Elves to support him over Sylvanas.