The Kaldorei Conundrum

Lore Story Forum
387

The eternal conflict between the Amani and the Sin’dorei is a text book burglar resident war. It doesn’t matter how brief or percieved the damage delivered.

Simply put, like rhe Horde, the Sin’dorei refused to leave while Jaina packed up her people from not one but four nations, and left.

In regards to Duratar having trees, the place always had trees, just not enough of them. Furthermore Proudmore wasn’t to blame for the tree shortage because the place is a Sahara to the west and a Desolace to the east. If Thrall moved his people out of and away from Ashenvale into the Quagmire, Thrall and the Horde would have had all the wood and water to their hearts content. Instead they elected to remain burglers, just like the Sin’dorei. Except had the Sin’dorei elected to move Silvermoon to the west, the Amani may not have continued to war so direly against them.

Also, while Orgrimmar remains on Azshara’s border, Splintertree Post, the Warsong Lumber Camp and Zoram’gar outpost and Kargatha keep; all well wothun Kaldorei territory. Therefore suffice to say rhe location of Orgrimmar isn’t a coincidental one.

And while you like to argue the Nelves could have helped the Horde after mount Hyjal; thats like saying your paying the thief or burglar to not burglar you no more, at your expense: bribary/tribute.

Fact of the matter is, rich or poor, the burglar, not the rich folk have to apologize for the transgression, even if said transgression was a mistake, (first tine around) or a continuation (present.) To demand the Kaldorei pay the Horde when it is the Horde in transgression is ludacris and outright naive regardless of the aid rendered at Hyjal. The battle of mount Hyjal was not for thr Kaldorei but for the planet if Azeroth; the benefits were 150% mutual.

Whereas Jaina and her survivors may have been guilty of the same transgression, unlike Thrall, Jaina admitted her mistake and relocated her people not back to Kul’Tiras but to an Island very far to the south, Beyond the border; the Horde just stayed put.

I know what your trying to say, bit even in fantasy you dont let a burglar stay even in your basement and pay him for it…

If you still need an example, even the Tauren had the sense and respect to settle beyond tge borders of Ashenvale.

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388

The undead in any faction other than their own naver made any sense until you take the matter into context.

Thrall’s clan the Frost Wolves live in Alterac Valley alone. It would take an extremely deranged leader to leave his stubborn family to their fates without recourse.

Also, the Forsakin were an enemy of a looming and certain enemy who was not content with being frozen too a throne; it would later pay off.

389

In its current state yes. In referring to the future of the zone and the conclusion of the battle for Darkshore.

390

It absolutely matters. The perception and length will influence how deeply ingrained care about the matter is. Because you are trying to argue that the mere fact the Orcs lived in Durotar is enough to entirely put cooperation off the table.

It is entirely a false equivalency to compare settling nearby land to a several thousand year blood war involving mass killings and stolen holy sites.

Part of why it didn’t have enough is because Daelin made an active effort to try and deforest it to screw the Orcs when he attacked.

At this point after the Third War they had stolen no wood. Aside from the confusion during the Third War. They are just neighbors. And at this point, the Night Elves and Orcs could have allied in the story.

That’s an absurd way of trying to frame it. I’m not saying the Night Elves had to help the Orcs. I’m saying there’s story potential for them to want to. Why shouldn’t the Night Elves want them to succeed, do well, and become great protectors of nature? That would be their impetuous to help them.

It is ludicrous because it isn’t my position. I’m not demanding they do anything. I’m saying it would have fit the story for them to try to be good neighbors to the people they just fought alongside.

I don’t think you know what I’m saying because you keep insisting on this burglar scenario.

The humans, orcs, and night elves all had minor conflicts before allying during the Third War. As this point, immediately following the Third War and preceding future conflict, the Night Elves could have decided ‘these guys have a similar sort of vibe with the elements. They have similar allies in the Tauren and Trolls. Lets work together for all of our mutual benefit. Let’s teach them how to respect our beliefs and in turn they will be our allies in protecting the world!’

At this point there’s no great divide to prevent such a thing. In fact, it could have been written the Night Elves invited them to live there because this is all a hypothetical post-WC3 but pre-Vanilla scenario.

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391

It sounds like you didn’t play wc3 at all; which is ok because most WoW players didn’t. Splintertree post is the hypothetical Lumber camp of Grom Hellscream, that or Kargathia keep, from which he provided the Lumber needed to build Orgrimmar in the first place. And though ignorant be Thrall and Grom’s plans (Thrall sent him there in the first place) Thrall neither offered any reparations or moved his people out of the forest in the first place while the humans did. Also, nothing was stopping Thrall from joining his new friend Jaina in the Quagmire, or moving down to the lush Feralas. Instead Thrall stayed put, repaid nobody and expected to be catered too? If your new neighbor broke into your house, even by accident (hard to believe) they still owe reperations. After reparations then there’s parting ways. Thats how it works in RL.

What your insisting, isn’t realistic, even if the culprit was innocent and neglegent. Because even under Thrall, the Orcs endured too much calamity to be naive or ignorant. Especially when pride and or Death gets in the way.

Furthermore, slaying the Kaldorei equivalent of Jesus is pretty offensive, more offensive if not equal too building on sacred ground. The Kaldorei didn’t get Cenarius back until Cataclysm.

In regards to no longer stealing, Horde been felling Ashenvale since the get go, Warsong Gulch is one of the first BGs in the game and both Kargathia Keep and Splintertree Post are the speculative base camps of Grom Hellscream.

Of the three lush places after the 3rd war Thrall had to choose from, he had to cling to Ashenvale.

In regards to Cenarius, he’s a fictitious character but the stance blizzard gave him is flushed out enough, whereas we dont know, and probably have a hell of a time to wait to find out whether or not Jesus will or has forgiven the foul souls that caused his early departure; necessitating his return.

Its late, sorry but thank you for reading: peace blue elf…

392

Night elves not joining any faction makes more sense than them joining the alliance. They wouldn’t have been beaten to death with the retcon hammer to make them fit in a faction that’s big on industry, civilization, and a different religion.

Whenever Blizzard actually gets around to adressing it, expect some huge retcons.

393

I did.

  1. The way nations and territories operate isn’t quite equivalent to people and private property. And that how nations operate in the past (versus in more modern history) is also somewhat different just based on various things.

  2. Sure, assume in this Thrall promises reparations for the damage they did. I think it unnecessary because they all worked together and the Night Elves never asked for any (even from the humans, from what I know). But if it will get you to grapple with the actual scenario, sure.

Sure it is, if people are acting with altruism motives rather than vindictive ones. Which I see as within the Night Elves’ capacity. But even if they did, we could have the Orcs ceding for the sake of cooperation. Alliances are typically give and take.

Cenarius respected the Orcs after the Third war per the quote I gave earlier. And relatively speaking, for the Night Elves, Cataclysm wasn’t all that long later. I don’t think it gets brought up much at all.

Again, this is a hypothetical before Vanilla and after WC3 in the timeline. After they teamed up but before any further taking of wood.

The problem is that you are intensely stuck in what we know happened after the Night Elves joined the Alliance. After they joined, the Orcs kept causing issues. This is a hypothetical about before then. Where the worst they did was cut down some trees (which humans did) fight (which humans did) and kill Cenarius. And like the humans, they also teamed up with the Night Elves to fight in the Third War. So the only mark against them compared to the humans AT THE POINT OF JOINING ONE FACTION OR THE OTHER is the Orcs killed Cenarius (who came back) but they also shared a lot more culture, as well as culturally similar allies, and were nearby.

I will say, the idea they never joined a faction could fit ok. Just that, if they have to join the Alliance or Horde when they did, either choice makes sense. Still worried how WC3 Reforged will be.

394

Except it is, especially when that nation has yet to exist: Israel/South&North Korea.

Furthermore, working together doesn’t amount to anything when they’ve profited equally, even more than the Kaldorei because they didn’t have a demon infestation so bad afterwards they had to seal off the Holiest place on Azeroth.

During the Cataclysm, when we got to see him again; a generation or two after he was slain.

The hunans vacated the Region, the Horde stayed like good burglars do. Also, its called evidence: what we know. History is a study oc what happens when interactions and thefts take place.

Also, the Kaldorei has more in common with the humans than they do with the orcs. It isn’t specified exactly when Tyrande joined the Alliance, but safe to say it was after the Kul’Tiran debacle at Theramore island.

In regards to Kaldorei not choosing a faction after being opened to the world doesn’t make sense because of the world’s factions, they had almost 10k years of unobstructed growth; and showes with their huge number of towns and outpost across 2 worlds. The Night Elf access to fauna and knowledge there of when most of the Eastern Kingdoms are in ruin or undeath.

I say the Kaldorei are natural friends and allies of the Alliance.
Furthermore, Cenarius not giving the Horde their own Ashenvale in the Barrens (the nightmare did) says allot about the depth of Cenarius’s forgiveness of the Horde; people don’t compensate thieves.[quote=“Imerus-moon-guard, post:393, topic:252611”]
I will say, the idea they never joined a faction could fit ok. Just that, if they have to join the Alliance or Horde when they did, either choice makes sense. Still worried how WC3 Reforged will be.
[/quote]

WC3 Reforged isn’t supoosed to be adding anything new, just better engine and graphics.

395

It really isn’t because it involves different considerations.

It does because it establishes bonds, common goals, relationships.

For the Night Elves, relatively not that long.

It is called being intentionally obtuse so you don’t have to entertain a hypothetical. Later history necessarily doesn’t apply. You aren’t actually grappling with the idea.

Not really. The Orcs and Tauren share more with the Night Elves than the humans do.

Pretty sure they said they might change some dialogue.

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396

How far?

Then explain the rape of Ethiopia by a former Ally and battle partner after the first world war? Explain Eritrea, that was part of the Etheipian empire, and provider of sanctuary since before the Ansar gave sanctuary to the Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings of god be upon him?

Better yet explain the Cold Shoulder of not only western media but the governments gave to the Soviet Union after ww2? Because last i looked, the Soviets contributed a hell of a lot more towards the outcome than credit is given for.

Furthermore, explain why concessions were exacted from the Italians even though, like the Vichy Fremch they switched sides? To clame that politics is any different than ordinary human interactions is hyperbole; especially when ICBMs are not involved.

Credit is rarely given where credit is due, the reasons are allot more complex than hypothesis and they often Involve properties, egos and concessions and concerns.

In a utopian setting. In a RL setting their be hell to pay. certainly not keeping the stealings or stay in pretty much the same place.

Time took a different meaning when their immortality was extinguished by Malfurion’s trap at the world’s tree. Also, the longer your at peace, the more traumatic is the effects of war. Getting robbed at 60 is just as, if not more traumatic at 60 than it is at 16; especially if it never has been done before.

Except it isn’t hypothetical since its in game and established lore: canon. We didn’t have an rpg segment regarding the Kaldorei and their struggles after the defeat of Archimonde, the infestation of Felwood or the growing of Teldrassil. We just get the campaign with Rexxar and the Kul’Tiran’s war upon Thrall’s horde after everything apparently been laid to rest.

Later history dictates the concept of past history, because it leads into question the nature of what actually happened over what was stated to happen. Jordan Peterson covers that topic allot and is a serious ongoing problem today.

Like what? The Horde is a meritorious society. The final names the Orcs wear only given after achieving a feat, whereas the Kaldorei were a matriarchy and to an extent still are; thats almost if not is a complete polar opposite disposition. What is hypothetical, is whether or not Thrall offered to return the stolen lumber and compensate the families of the slain Kaldorei after the battle of mount Hyjal.

What isn’t hypothetical is his return to the northern Barrens where he funded Duratar, but he could have taken the Horde anywhere but the Northern Barrens, like Jaina did.

The Tauren were nomadic and are Shamanistic before Thrall showed up. The Kaldorei were an established and stabilised theocracy. The only thing they have in common is Cenarius decided to share druidism with the Tauren; with or without conferring with the Night Elves, who were xenophobic in general.

Furthermore, by this logic the Draenei have more in common to the Orcs because the Furies chose to them after Gul’dan broken ties with them; even though the Horde paved an entire highway from their greatest building to their front door to their world with the corpses of Daenei: Path of Glory.

“Dialog” is the words are said amd the number of them, not history, not order of events or conclusions. The crimes of the Horde eill still be there. The conflict with Kul’Tiras will still be there. No more and no less.

However, it would be a blessing if Blizzard gave an rpg campaign for each faction that still was in limbo, such as the Sin’dorei after Illidans defeat in Ice crownz and the KaldoreiRaising and founding of Darnassus. Or the story of the Frostwolves during the sacking of Lordaeron and the civil war of the Scourge. Maybe even a POV campaign for Lord Garithos.

I know its asking allot, but WC3 Reforged is a lost opportunity otherwise.

397

I don’t see a problem that needs to be fixed. This is Warcraft, not Tolstoy, and most Warcraft players would not sit still for Tolstoy.

The purpose of the story is to move us form one dungeon, quest, and PVP battleground to the next. In that it gets the job done.

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398

See, this is one of those lore black holes that frustrates me. Unless there is some fiction out there I don’t know about or something in game I don’t remember, there is nothing out there that establishes what happened between the Horde and the Night Elves after the Battle of Mt Hyjal and before Vanilla WoW began.

We know Daelin Proudmoore showed up and immediately started causing trouble for the Horde. We know the end result there.

But what were the interactions between the Night Elves and the Horde? Were there any diplomatic efforts by either side. Did the Night Elves blow off the Horde? Did the Horde blow off the Night Elves?

Any troubles in Ashenvale could have easily been solved if they just simple spoke to each other, establish trade deals and the like. The Horde needed wood, especially after Daelin’s destruction of any forested areas left in Durotar.

The Night Elves didn’t want any of their forests ruined by lumbering. They could have helped the Horde regrow forests and in the meantime supply lumber via Wisp until such forests were established and show them how to responsibly lumber.

So, no conflict in Ashenvale. Both sides become peaceful neighbors. But one side or the other or both didn’t see this and so here we are today. All they had to do was speak to each other and hash out both sides needs and wants.

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399

The only details I am aware of are in Chronicle 3 and they are sadly sparse. Just that the Orcs went to settle Durotar while the Night Elves decided to abandon their prior isolationism. But little beyond that.

Exactly! A win win. And both being stronger for their alliance.

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400

I mean at the end of MoP they pretty much ceded aszhara to the horde as long as they stayed out of ashenvale. I think stone talon is kind of gray area.

401

And to the next expansion, which outweighs any bg

Admiral Proudmoor was out to rescue his sole daughter and the survivors of Lordaeron. However, his time warring with the Old Horde blinded him to the friendship Jaina grew with Thrall and the New Horde.

The Night Elves were completely absent during this conflict; but their proximity infers many things.

402

The Horde literally took Azshara from the Kaldorei during Cataclysm. Giving up on a province lost to a more capable enemy isn’t necessarily ceding; its like giving up on getting back that car that was stolen and being driven around in the neighborhood because the police are either too weak or the courts have a conflict of interest.

It only lead to the burning of Teldrassil in the three expansions later. Empowering your enemy seldom works out.

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403

Well the war has been going on because Sylvanas doesn’t believe each group can put their old grudges behind them… when for the most part they have all actively worked on putting the past behind them.

I agree they shouldn’t have given up on azshara so easily, but wasn’t Varian the one who kind of stepped in and made that happen?

404

If you did the Krasarang Wilds questline in MoP, you’d know that Varian almost got the Sin’dorei to switch sides. It goes to show the human Kingdoms aren’t below sacrificing an ally for their own interest.

It also gives ground to Tyrande’s decision to go after the Horde directly on her own; since Anduin technically sacrificed Darkshore, and potentially Ashenvale for a chance to reclaim Lordaeron.

Just because you ally tried to sacrificed you doesn’t make your enemy your friend; it does bring the Alliance into question.

However, looking back at past and present Alliance history, the workings may be in the mix for a third or fourth factions. Because Gilneas receded from the Alliance before. And the Blood Elves can’t make up their mind since through Jaina, the Alliance betrayed and spilled them twice.

Anduin’s lack of concern for Kaldorei affairs is purplexing because even with the loss of Azshara, the Kaldorei still hold claim to more territory than Stormwind and Gilneas combined.

Is it Jealousy or contempt: anduin’s disposition.

405

For all intents and purposes we won’t see a faction split as far as certain races no longer belonging to one side or another. I just think you may see the power shift from SW and give the other races more of a say so over a “high king”

406

Imagine being such a brainwashed blizzard boot licker that you don’t think there is an issue with how Night Elves have been handled for the past 9 years. Especially in BfA.