just saying that we never had such scenario where we are losing and retreating
i don’t really think that the raid itself was a problem, mekkatorke and jaina got some respectful encounters considering that they are raid bosses.
The problem is that even after we win we simply lose because we drived the zandalari into the horde making dazarlazor pretty much pointless because we get nothing of truly value, we denied the fleet ? and killed a racial leader?
well, we already lost ours, to some 70d chess and the zandalari have a new queen!
now that is my problem!
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WoT scenario was entirely set up as a fighting retreat and in the finale we had to lead a rescue mission which even that was an utter failure that required ourselves to get rescued.
So I don’t think your statement is very accurate.
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i was actually referring to a raid.
gotta say that would be a pretty interesting concept for the future.
a raid dedicated to fight a losing battle, some sort of last stand! sounds pretty epic.
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Maybe that is what they will be doing with Thunderbluff. Who knows but I was not restricting this conversation to just raids.
It is about how Alliance wins and Horde wins are presented.
Catori considers because according to quest dialogue that Night Elves have great defense that requires 2 different ways of assault is a Horde loss.
I consider Alliance throwing away a diversion army to their deaths as well as the entire rearguard getting slaughtered all the way to Jaina a “loss”.
I am not negating that we killed the Zandalari King or blew this fleet we saw in two cinematics but I would say our measures of what counts as a loss are completely skewed.
By Catori’s definition Terror of Darkshore scenario was an Alliance loss. Lordaeron was a loss and Dazaralor was a loss.
so okay, maybe i am little lost here, are you just saying this as an example or you actually think that the suicide squad and the entire raid until jaina is an alliance lost?
I am saying the raid is split into two. First the Alliance “wins” then the Horde “wins”.
This raid was never about one side being the TOTAL loser like Teldrassil was.
Blizzard could have done it if they wanted to. I am sure you agree. but they didn’t.
ahh i see.
okay i think that this is your mistake.
Tell me, what victory comes without sacrifice? the nazmir squad in nazmir killed and the raid until jaina was that.
just like the horde lose a lot of troops against the local guard
Who died of importance in dazarlazor? Nobody.
Do numbers actually matter? No.
what did the horde get from all of that? injuring mekkatorke and jaina, tthe latter being already completely healed and continuing to lead and support the alliance, hell she may be the key to defeat azshara.
and that’s it, it doesn’t matter all those randoms killed, the only one who matters was rasthakan, and the alliance killed him, the horde/zandalari tried to protect him.
Same with mekka and jaina, the horde/zandalari tried to kill them, they failed. and they continue to be a threat for them.
and of course that blizzard could have done it if they wanted, they could have done a lot more of other things.
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I could say the same thing about lordaeron? Who died? Nobody.
Exactly they don’t which was Catori’s main complaint about WoT.
They got to face two of our racial leaders and defeat them.
This is kind of like the Garrosh encounter except there was no offical capture.
Can you imagine if in this raid we faced Nathanos, Baine or Lorthemar in battle, defeat them only for them to run away at the last second? Do you count those as victories or losses?
It actually does matter what you do and who you face. Its not just about scoring a kill on an official character.
Why do you limit yourself to just the character that gets killed?
Garrosh didn’t die at the end of SoO but from all the Horde complaints you might as well consider him decapitated in spectacular fashion by Varian.
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I think the problem is that there has seemed to be mixed messages regarding how serious we are supposed to take the burning of Teldrassil as Alliance players. To begin with, it seemed like it was supposed to be this huge, game changing, emotional motivation for Alliance players to rally around their faction and want revenge on the Horde. There was the warbringers cinematic, the missions in game, the fiction, the talk of it being genocide. Blizzard was really successful in making a portion of Alliance players pumped to take the war to the enemy.
But then over time, there seemed to be this counter message that the Alliance successes here and there (which are always bittersweet, partial, or some how part of Sylvanas’ grand scheme) count as a satisfying conclusion to the story and in any event the Horde isn’t really that bad and the naga/old gods are really the main problem anyway. It feels a little bait and switch really. Was the burning of Teldrassil supposed to be a pivotal moment in WOW history that changed the faction dynamic forever or just Theramore 2.0?
I disagree that the Horde needs to be devastated or shamed to make this story work. Horde players didn’t vote to burn down the tree so I don’t really want them to lose favorite cities or characters. But I also don’t think that just because you can add up events and say that the Alliance destroyed this many boats or technically won this warfront or Horde players lost some artifact in some war campaign mission that it makes the story feel satisfying, especially for Night Elf fans.
On another note though, I do feel a little bad for Horde players here. I’m not really sure how the burning of Teldrassil was supposed to get you pumped with faction pride. Unless your RPing as a hardcore villainous Forsaken warlock or something (which might be the best way to have fun actually), I imagine its a little hard to feel invested in taking the war to the Alliance.
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actually wrong, not only we stopped him but we also capture him,he even end up in chains. you can’t say the same about mekkaboi and elsa.
that depends in their objedtives and ours.
if we stopped nathanos from, i don’t know, raising someone and force him to flee and fail his main goal? then yeah, thats a victory for the alliance.
you can’t expect to have invincible characters, and you can’t expect to have those characters and not seeing them fight i don’t know any hero who hasn’t been defeated at least once. because a hero is the spirit of self-sacrifice. like, basically what the alliance is about, what can be more heroic than that?
and considering the fate of many if not all raid bosses? then hell yeah i accept that they haven’t been killed or captured, i actually feel lucky on that front. and not just any raid boss, a LAST BOSS actually WINS by achieving her main goal and surviving to tell the tale.
that is why i said that blizzard has been respectful with their encounters, they even go as far as creating unique mechanics and new spells animations just to see how awesome they are.
At the end of the day the “Horde” beat our racial leaders.
You think if the roles were reversed the Horde players would be saying this was a win for them? Doubtful.
Well we didn’t stop Nathanos. He did what he set out to do.
If the mere fact that he was forced to flee count as a victory then Jaina/Mekkaboi escaping with their lives is also a win for the Horde.
I ask you to please be consistent in how you define these because it seems to shift depending on which faction you are talking about.
I never said I wanted invincible heroes.
All I said is that it is important to show who is facing whom.
Just because we beat Ashvane’s pirates does that mean the Alliance has a win over the Horde? We didn’t beat the Horde. So why does it matter if we beat Ashvane or the Naga… or in this case the Zandalari?
When the only time it’s brought up again is when the Belf commander explains his hatred for Jaina. If I was a belf I’d still be salty, Lor’thamar seems to have forgotten it.
If we talk about the allied race contributions to the war then I’ll reinforce my reasoning to why the Alliance allied races have brought much more to the table.
Each velf has mastered the void and are apparently multiclass shadow priest. They’ve also displayed more impressive magical ability that their former allies, the belfs. Although they are few compared to the more prolific races, there are apparently enough of them to justify turning them into a playable race instead of the helves.
Lightforged goats are space marines for some reasons. Every time they appear the Horde in the area immediately falter and run away. It was the Lightforged that routed the Horde in Nazmir before PC involvement. It was them they pushed back the Horde during their azerite raids in Stormsong. A no name lightforged Dranei even captured the Troll racial leader during the suicide attack in Nazmir.
Dark Irons only got fleshed out during this expansion. They’re the most magically inclined of the three dwarf clans, and give us like two zones if Blizzard ever updates the old world again.
KT humans already do a lot. I don’t need to explain them.
HM Tauren don’t even contribute a lot to the story or the Horde. They aren’t even good fighters. Their only one contribution is Lasan Skyhorn, but he’s in the same Gazlowe in which he’s the only representative that’s actively taking part in the war.
Nightborne contribute a lot, yeah. They punch above their weight for being just a city state.
Mag’har only contribute their Iron Horde tech, but until they contribute their glorious rail road network or foundry then it’s tech the Horde already had.
Zandalar contribute a lot to the story, yes. No explanation needed.
Only the Zandalari and Nightborne had any meaningful contribution to the Horde’s story.
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and we beat up their former warchief and stopped entirely his evil plan, we also killed the leader of their allies. and the zandalari king no less. no small feat.
What did that “beat” to our leaders do? just one guy in coma who can return any moment, the other is already facing azshara and probably creating the foundations of a ever lasting peace that this game and our factions eventually needs.
malfurion was also beating their current warchief. so what do we say to that?
genn also kinda screwed sylvanas in stormheilm… i can go all day.
i don’t know, we should ask them, what do they prefer, having your leaders killed or just beaten in the most respectful way possible?
We actually did, if you pay attention delaryn and sira were just 2 of the many nelfs corpses on the shore, we stopped him and he had to flee and he lost a valkyr on the process.
No, you are just ignoring what i just said about “depends on the objedtive” mekkaboi/jaina were literally protecting their troops, what is why they stayed to fight in the first place to gain time and they did, we are alive.
we actually kinda did when we retaken back the abyssal scepter and destroyed the fleet that they were looking for, that is why we attacked in the first place.
like i said, my problem, is NOT the raid itself, but rather how meaningless it became in the end when it amounted nothing more than… killing rasthakan,giving them a new queen and fully commit them to the horde, if they had their doubs before, we united them now.
when i created the thread i didn’t count dazarlazor because is not as “devastating” as gilneas,theramore or teldrassil.
because those “victories” means… little, but i would be exaggerating if i say that we got humiliated in our victory in dazarlazor, we didn’t.
if i can define it in one word it would be : "pointless " or “unsatisfying”
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So in your opinion the Horde beating our racial leaders left right and center doesn’t count because they got to live?
Well alright lets agree to disagree.
We haven’t killed a single Horde leader in so far besides Rastaguy and even he vowed to never be part of the Horde. An ally to the Horde but never part of it.
Thrall killed Garrosh. Not us.
Nathanos went there specifically for Delaryn and got Sira as well.
He also got many other NEs as dark rangers by player action.
I am sorry but I do not view gaining enough time just to run away from the Horde by getting a racial leader wounded for lord knows how long as any sort of victory.
Maybe you do but I don’t.
I define wins as when both the Alliance and Horde (not zandalari) face off in battle. And one side beats the other and claims victory.
I am not interested in this tit for tat of “Oh I stole this. Oh you stole that” or attacking some random faction that is unrelated as any sort of victory over the Horde.
Lordaeron is a victory until its final cinematic. That is what I count as a victory.
I would say we got pretty humiliated running away from the all mighty horde in a straight up fair fight.
All we could do is throw our racial leaders at them and hope to baby jesus we have enough time to run away with our tails between our legs.
I think part of the problem is thinking of this fight as Alliance vs Horde. If the story is set up like that, then any Alliance victory or revenge has to be counterbalanced to be fair to Horde players. Which makes sense. Blizzard can’t just let the Alliance devastate the Horde. It would mess up faction parity.
But if we think about it as Alliance (or Night Elf) vs Sylvanas and Sylvanas loyalists, then maybe there can be unequivocal revenge. Sylvanas is likely to come out as a villain for both factions soon anyway, right? I say let the Night Elves get a cool moment of revenge before that happens.
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Then why do a faction war story at all?
Thats how Blizzard seems to operate. It is always about the characters and entire factions and races are merely puppets dancing to the tunes of these characters.
Honestly, I think Blizzard should stop doing faction war stories. I don’t see how you can do it well without ticking off one faction or the other (or both). One faction can’t be allowed to decimate the other. There can’t be a clear winner.
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I do get it.
It is just not relevant.
A win is a win regardless of my or your feelings about it.
Do you define wins as something you are supposed to feel great about?
I have played Horde, and unless you missed the prepatch Teldrassil never comes up again. Nobody is shaming you or your faction. All the Horde leaders are gunho for this whole faction war.
It is all Sylvanas as far as Blizzard is concerned.
Remind me again, did Sylvanas making a pithy quip before futilely blighting her own city keep Lordaeron from being an Alliance win?
Well… yeah.
She had agency, denied her enemy their prize and withdrew all her forces apparently.
My feelings have nothing to do with it.
And as I have said Andiun constantly on the verge of tears during BFL doesn’t take away from the initial success.
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