The horde needs a devastating defeat

Lore Story Forum
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hum, no, i said that we faced their leaders, we defeated them completely. rasthakan is gone, garrosh was stopped and put in chains.
mekkaboi and jaina achieved their goals and survived.
and there has been multiple instances of alliance characters beating their horde counterpart.

and the horde didn’t killed a single leader either.

the only thing that it seems we can agree is thrall stealing our kill, that was stupid.

No, he went there to raise them all, he was stopped.

What?! why not? the odds were completely against us.
friendly reminder that only 3 alliance leaders participated on the attack it wasn’t the entire alliance versus the zandalari and the horde. it was just an elite force with lessers numbers.

then i guess that we defeated the horde left and right during mop, did you know that varian defeated garrosh?
no?
meh.

hum, it wasn’t a fair fight, it was the entire zandalari and horde versus just a few aliance who,if stayed would have been sandwiched, the zandalari had loas,home field,everything at their advantage. and they still lost, the horde tried to kill jaina who just wasted their time, they failed.

Now, if it was the entire alliance,more racial leaders,void elves,ect and they still needed to run then yeah, that would be humilliating. but that wasn’t the case.

it seems like i am not able to change your mind, i guess we are done here, gl.

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323

Yeah the troll city was an alliance victory i think all the issues have 2 root causes and ine was going to happen so mot sure why anyone cares. The first is driving the zandalari to the horde that was going to h as ppen no matter what the king had a ton of death flags. The secind is right after this the alliance fleet gets destroyed all that work to give the horde an ally and lose the ships

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324

Exactly.
in the end the attack was so pointless…

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It was never supposed to be a fist pump moment. And depending on what kind of horde fan you are, neither was the entire War of Thorns. The message it was sending was that Sylvanas forced the entire horde into an unnecessary war because it doesn’t deserve mercy if they lose after this.

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Actually it is mentioned, in Saurfang’s questline. As for your opinions on “win”, a win is traditionally something you are supposed to take satisfaction or pride in; which is why you seem to not consider SoO a win for the Alliance; or Lordaeron (despite you technically winning all the once held Forsaken territories); or the NEs pushing the Horde out of Ashenvale at the end of MoP (because the WoT invalidates that years later); or Dazal’alor (for some reason)?

See … a win is a win regardless of your feelings about it, but ONLY if you’re playing Horde according to your own arguments. If you’re Alliance, a win is not a win if its not something you can take satisfaction in. As for agency, the Horde has absolutely no agency in this story; if we did we wouldn’t have had leaders who should have turned against Sylvie after Teldrassil sitting around with their thumbs up their butts until Blizz ALLOWED them to. The only difference is that the Horde is in large a proactive entity and the Alliance is reactive one in BfA … thats it.

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For me, feelings or rather the emotion engendered by something in the game is all that matters. And it is Blizzard’s inability to correctly calibrate the emotional pay off for what they do with the story that is the greatest weakness in their story telling in my view.

As I said above, they keep delivering emotional gut punches to the Alliance and then there is never an adequate pay off in emotional terms. By the same token, they run the Horde through the villain mill, forcing Horde players to participate in evil acts, but they seem to think that the fig leaf of “Oh, but the player is part of the “good” Horde” is sufficient to offset the emotional impact of forcing the player to be part of the “bad guys”.

And one small note, it is not just BfA - the Horde is always the proactive entity and the Alliance is always the reactive entity. Something that has also been a source of frustration for some Alliance players.

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328

Shouldn’t the alliance (and the Night Elves especially) have a win they can take satisfaction in? It was the burning of Teldrassil that started this after all. Partial Alliance victories that are counterbalanced in some way make sense if this was a war between two equal morally gray sides. But this is about a victimized side trying to get revenge/justice against the aggressor side. Besides, I don’t really feel that Sylvanas blighting her own city or a previously unseen troll king dying provide any real closure for the Teldrassil story. I don’t think its necessary for the Horde to be utterly devastated, but I don’t feel like there has been a real moment yet where the Night Elves and their Alliance allies have really gotten to feel like they paid Sylvanas back.

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I give up too. It seems we just have two wildly different standards when judging either faction.

How many Alliance leaders were at Lordaeron?
How many Horde leaders at Dazaralor?
The “entire” alliance showed up on less ships at lordaeron that we see showed up at Zandalar.

This point you are trying to push is completely nonsensical.

We needed the actual Horde’s help to do it.

The entire Horde?
Was every Horde racial leader present in the raid?

I think you are head canoning to yourself a win here.

He seems to have raised quite a few but because he was stopped mid way as you like to say it is an Alliance victory?

By that definition no one has won anything in this game.
Hell Teldrassil and Theramore are terrible Horde losses.

With that logic it explains why it was the Horde player that needed those 4 cinematics to feel good about themselves.

Lol in a book.
lmao.

Yes yes your faction gets in game representation and I have to read about mine in a short paragraph for 30$. Is that bias or is it merely incompetence?

I agree with that. Maybe I should change my wording to be more accurate.

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you just don’t get it don’t you?
the attack was so succesful that we gained naval superiority and “winning on all fronts” and only random old god artifact managed to escale the odds, if it wasn’t for that attack, we would have be probably dead right now.
but for the last time THE PROBLEM IS NOT THE THE RAID ITSELF BUT RATHER HOW LITTLE MEAN IN THE END BECAUSE WE RETURNED TO THE STATUS QUO

i am talking about varian defeating garrosh in 1v1 in two different ocassions, but of course because “i don’t read novels” you don’t know that.

hum, we reclaimed part of darkshore that we previously lose, we put a fight and builded a new base, we killed a valkyr and stopping their work raising dead night elves, yes it is an alliance win despite how stupid the ingame scenario was.

and thats the last thing i am going to say about it.

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No I don’t like having have to pay 30$ premium price to read about how hard I am winning. Apparently.

As for the rest. Lets end it there because we just have different standards and neither is willing to bend them.

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You know, reading through threads like this where Alliance posters get angry because they can’t completely destroy the Horde and Horde posters who want to feel good about being Horde makes me wonder if they shouldn’t just somehow split the game. The Alliance people can have their au where the Horde is just filled with npcs they can crush and the Horde players can have their au where they don’t have to constantly be the villain in a faction originally advertised as a group of underdogs struggling to survive

Basically there is so much hate between players maybe we all need different games at this point. This is what, the 100th thread where Alliance want justice but the Horde objects because not all of us want to be evil mooks?

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333

They could have that more or less if they just reversed the roles of the factions.

If the Alliance is tired of being the morally superior sufferers and the Horde is tired of being the morally repugnant aggressors, then let the Alliance be the offensive. The next expansion can be all about how the Alliance takes advantage of yet another regime change (and a less militant Warchief at that) to cut a swath of revenge through Horde lands and the Horde storyline can be about surviving.

Which is closer to how it was in Warcraft 3 and Vanilla, which people seemed to like.

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If you believe the latter, then you are lying in the former. Or you played Horde from 1-109.

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Quick reminder- the Story Forum, or even the forums at large, are not a good cross section of the player base. #[Garithos|Garrosh]didnothingwrong people are in the vast minority.

I bring up RPers because as a whole, they are way more prone to being huge lore nerds than most. After Teldrassil, on WrA, there was a large event that was a memorial for Teldrassil- originated and run by Hordie guilds.

On MG, my Alliance guild (this one, in fact) the same is true, in fact, one character is literally a satire of Scarlet crusade/Garithos types- a draenei shaman who runs around praising the light, says Teldrassil was deserved because the NE’s worshiped the false goddess Elune, and gives demon hunters dirty looks because of Xe’ra. (It is pretty hilarious actually.)

The story forums are to WoW what 4chan is to message boards. We’re probably even /pol, sometimes. Don’t make the mistake of thinking the mass of nutters on here represents any kind of player base consensus!

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The alliance just needs s ein that that dosent end in a but. The troll city might have been s great time as over all despite set backs it was s win if only the navy wasnt destroyed not long after then we could call it s victiry with no buts

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Oh? As if the Alliance isn’t winning enough?

Just because the Horde is getting more story doesn’t mean they are winning.

These past 3 expansions were all like watching a soccer game where the opposing team has control of the ball 90% of the time, but they keep on scoring on their own goal while your team isn’t doing anything… yet your team is still winning.

And you want to win some more?

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They don’t want to just win. They want to win AND humiliate the horde. It doesn’t matter how many wins the Alliance get, if they don’t get Sylvanas acknowledging their victory and having a breakdown over it, then it doesn’t count.

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We have Thrall, Saurfang and Baine wearing the Alliance Tabard now.
We have Jaina’s powerlevel equal to 45 Gods.
We have an enemy king dead in his home.

Alliance players: WE AREN’T WINNING ENOUGH!

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thats a cool analysis if you ignore the what the entire thread is about, now how having a powerful character or thrall and baine being friends with some alliance characters counts as a payoff for getting teldrassil destroyed at the hands of the horde?

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Horde got to do that twice in major game events and several times in questing.
I don’t think it is hard to ask for ONE occasion for it to happen in our favor.

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