I would prefer a political conflict about peace treaty with internal conflict in both faction than a bad copy of mop.
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My only regret is not being able to partake in said purging.
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“The horde needs a devastating defeat.”
What’s the whole expansion been about lmao? We already won and it’s not even the last patch. They should be calling the expac Battle the Horde instead of BfA since the Horde PC been killing as much Horde as the Alliance.
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A guilt trip for the Horde and a reminder to the Alliance that it’s just the Horde’s plaything.
Yeah… no. Not really.
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So we’ve already won. If we’re not taking this little war seriously then how is this not already humiliating for the Horde?
Please explain. Horde fleet nonexistent, their allied races are weaker than ours, open rebellion by its leaders, and the humiliation of admitting that the Purge of Dalaran was justified.
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When did they admit the Purge of Dalaran was justified?
Highmountain Tauren bring in the resources of Highmountain and manpower to the Horde.
Nightborne bring in the resources of Suramar and manpower to the Horde.
Mag’har bring the technology of the Iron Horde and manpower to the Horde.
Zandalari bring the power of the Loa, resources of Zandalar, and manpower to the Horde.
Void Elves bring the unstable power of the Void to the Alliance, and not much on manpower.
Lightforged Draenei bring… the Vindicaar to the Alliance, again, not much manpower.
The Dark Irons were already part of the Alliance, so they’re not bringing anything new at all.
The Kul Tirans bring the resources of Kul Tiras and manpower to the Alliance.
In just about every meaningful metric the Horde’s Allied Races are superior to the Alliance’s. They bring more to the Horde, than the Alliance’s do to the Alliance.
As for rebellion, yeah, same old song and dance, nothing new.
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Ahem. Well, not really the Horde losing because the Alliance is winning. More like the Horde’s McGuffins keep getting stolen or brought to Jaina on a stolen boat, nobody on Hordeside puts guards on their fleets or regularly inspects their boats for explosives, the Horde learning that an open pyramid is not a very defensible place, and making deals with Death is silly because you’ll die shortly thereafter.
The expansion’s about the Horde defeating itself through incompetence.
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Don’t you consider the second half of the raid in Dazaralor a win as well as the initial success of your war campaigns a win?
You won first and then through sneaky ways the Alliance thwarted you.
They didn’t actually fight you and over power you.
In Dazarlor sure you got tricked but you wiped out the diversionary force and then proceeded to slaughter your way through the vanguard all the way to Jaina where she abandoned her flagship and ran away from you.
All things considered this is an alliance win with the way our “wins” have been presented.
If these are losses then by your own metrics the Alliance hasn’t won a single battle since BFA started.
I consider it a win for the allaince, yes horde pushed them out and saved face.
Let’s compare to Darkshore similar goals, strike a races capital and kill their leader. I know the goal was to prevent the troll from joining the horde. But I don’t know how they planed to do this. For now I’m just saying it was to strike the capital and to capture or kill the racial leader
Alliance - success but failed to prevent the trolls from joining. Bonus destroyed their navy thus winning the war. Which is also the reason I think it was successful, alliance came out stronger and is almost victorious.
Horde - failure but burned downed the capital… which went against the main objective and also failed to kill the racial leader. Took out good amount of civilians but NE numbers are still large enough to challenge the horde and push them out.
Racial leaders
Alliance- lost gnome leader not dead but is out.
Horde - lost Zandalari king
Now I didn’t hate that horde was outmaneuver or allaince. No that is fine, this is what bugs me.
The horde still had issues pushing though in full strength while out numbering NE 8 to 1. They had to outmaneuver them again to win. Night elfs blocked them and made the horde bleed.
Then their are character fights. In both wars alliance characters owned their horde counter parts. Mek’t owned Gillyw, malfurion owned surfang(and in game Sylvanas too) and of course Jaina owned everyone.
To break it down. The allaince won in a similar situation, and even over came a Demi god Bowsawmi. While the horde’s army got owned and characters in their battle.
Being evil and your faction hero’s being toyed with just leaves a bad taste.
Again you complain are valid but I just wana show you the horde has it worse. There is no faction pride on this not on moral or strength.
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Actually, i don’t know about this one.
if we measure the same way as we did with lordaeron, where we failed our objective, and sylvanas escaped and not capturing the city.
we failed the objetive of capturing rasthakan,but we did kill a leader and their fleet.
The horde,did defeated in combat 2 leaders, true, but they tried to kill them,and failed, they tried to protect rasthakan, and failed as well.
mekkatorke is out of comission but is not like he can’t come back, and jaina didn’t recieved any permament damage at all,like the damage was so litte that the next scene after the raid she was talking like it was nothing.
and she didn’t abandoned her flagship, the horde didn’t captured that ship, in fact, the flagship is how we return in the first place.
but that was more a victory on the zandalari, not on the horde really because that is the last nail on the coffing to make them join.
so even after “we win” we actually lose.
not even speaking of the naval advantage that means so little. we already lost all the fleet.
I think your problem is that unlike the Alliance where there are tangible losses in achieving their “win” your “losses” come from the fact that you did not utterly dominate the NEs and the Alliance.
Like what were you expecting? That Horde walk through Ashenvale like gods as NEs faint at their mere presence?
Quite frankly speaking in the entire history of WoW no faction has had this treatment.
But lets address the rest of your post and why I think you are wrong.
I think we really need to be careful when setting out goals as the sole indicator of what a “win” is.
It is not about the goal, it is about what the characters and their factions actually accomplished. This probably counts against my own arguments as Alliance constantly fails to achieve any goal but do achieve some positives but lets go over them.
Yes the main achievement here is the destruction of the navy of the Trolls. However the entire assault on Dazaralor was an unmitigated disaster and unnecessary. We killed an Allied Race racial leader that we didn’t even know, killing him gave us no satisfaction nor did it deny the Horde anything.
If the Alliance just snuck a submarine there and blew the navy and went home we would have had a more meaningful victory.
In this scenario the Alliance had two of their main faction leaders defeated by the Horde and the vanguard completely defeated.
Please note this is a straight up Horde vs Alliance. Not Alliance vs Zandalari garrison. So the Horde victory seems meaningful.
Just like the entire Alliance would have had no chance against a single Horde Allied Race, the Zandalariz, unless they sacrificed a portion of their army in the process. Even then it was a quick strike and running away as soon as possible before the Horde arrived.
If The Alliance actually stuck around and pushed the Horde back THEN I would completely agree with you when I say this was an Alliance victory through and through.
Being good, suffering horrendously against that evil and still having your faction hero being toyed with leaves an even more sour taste in your mouth.
In Terror of Darkshore we see Horde torturing Night Elves. We fight through endless waves of them and finally power up Tyrande.
In our moment of “victory” Our hero is on her knees while Nathanos is endlessly being edgy and FINALLY in a terrible script sequence Tyrande moonfires ONE Valk’yr while the Horde raises scores of undead NEs so that the Alliance is forced to kill them for the next several months.
Let me remind you this is supposed to be a WIN after Teldrassil burning.
I don’t think you quite realize how bad it truly is on the Alliance side. I really don’t.
Your complaints are valid too, the problem is the things you are complaining about as being “losses” for the Horde are Alliance “Wins” so far. God help us if Horde endures a loss like Alliance has.
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As I said to Catori I don’t like counting “objectives”
Despite the Alliance stumbles and Andiun’s crying the Alliance still won that battle.
The problem is at the end they had no agency
If one of our catapults hit the Plague carts by accident instead of once again Horde (Sylvanas) deciding everything for us I would have been much more positive about the whole business.
This is why I do not like counting with objectives. They completely ignore the context and what actually happened. I already answered Catori regarding these encounters so maybe it is better to read the post above rather than repeat it here.
Did she? I though it was a different ship, the only difference seems to be the sails.
Yes it was a meaningless victory. I don’t even care, I barely saw the fleet anyway. It solely existed in cinematics and even then in Pride of Kultrias there are dozens of ships while in every cinematic later there is barely more than 5 on screen.
Pretty much boils down to the domain of LIFE counters DEATH (and vice versa); the same goes for LIGHT and VOID; and ARCANE and FEL. There is a reason its taken so damned long for the Argents to purify even small sections of the Plaguelands on their own; they can do it … but its simply not nearly as effective as those that wield life itself.
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i am pretty sure that if the horde managed to get something as huge as capturing the proudmoore flagship or sink it, they would acknowledge it in the narrative.
i think the post raid map is also called “proudmoore flagship”.
sadly, i think that we lost that ship in nazjatar already.
then i am sure that you will not ignore these facts:
Assaulting a fortified position with just a handful of ships and not the entire might of the alliance is suicide, that is why we needed a suicide squad in nazmir.it wasn’t just the zandalari who had everything at their advantage with those ballistas,loas, home field, ect but also the horde.
Only 3 alliance leaders participated on the attack.
Of course that we needed to either capture or kill rasthakan and get the hell out or be destroyed by the home field advantage.
Yes, is sad but the horde also lost that fleet even before us and at our hands. so is not like they had it great either on that front.
rip the dream naval battle that we all wanted.
The NE didn’t faint death, it wouldn’t of been a stretch of the imagination of horde owned the NE. That was my issue, horde had to outmaneuver them 2 times with 8 to 1 odds. Let’s not forget they said Malfurion + Tryanda can take on the entire horde army. Like bro where is the parity? Even in our wins they make us look lame.
Alliance has never lost to the horde. Alliance wins the wars might lose a battle or 2 but overall Alliance always wins.
You guys aren’t down a racial leader like orcs and trolls. You guys have heathy amount of characters where horde races don’t. Especially the horde centric races.
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Of course I am not.
I will describe an alternative version of Siege of Dazaralor Raid and let you decide in which context did the Horde or the Alliance came out on top.
I will be drawing a lot of parallels to Darkshore.
Alliance fleet arrives, they take some fire and then the entire Zandalari port explodes as their ships get blown skyhigh.
In the Alliance scenario the players cut through Horde and Zandalari forces and fight their way to the pyramid where rather than blowing it up they kill the king in a failed kidnapping plan.
Meanwhile the Horde scenario you run away from the port by fighting through the vanguard that has penetrated deep into city. In this fighting retreat you try to get to the Zandalari king until you arrive to late with Jaina standing over him.
You defeat Jaina and she leaves by blocking your way with an ice wall.
The scenario, fightwise is virtually the same. I am sure we could change it a bit further so that she is fighting you at the Port with the sea frozen over preventing you from using any craft to chase after her.
In such a scenario this is an utter win for the Alliance. Sure there are some losses but its a battle. Of course there will be deaths. But it gives the Alliance the satisfaction of assaulting the Horde and the Zandalari head on and winning.
Compare this scenario to the what we have now.
I think it is fair to say both the Alliance and Horde got something to write home about. Rather than this raid being an Alliance only victory.
Oh come on man. They can say whatever they like but what actually happens?
Malfurion gets an axe in the back and Tyrande barely kills a Valk’yr after being insulted for 10 minutes straight.
Really? I mean really? Come on man.
Again. It is not by Alliance doing. Horde and random Demon are the reason for those losses. We had nothing to do with it.
We are speaking about Alliance vs Horde hostile encounters and what happened in those encounters.
Lets try to keep things on topic.
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Don’t bother getting into these sorts of arguments man. The world of Het exists in loosely defined concepts of “Wins” and “Losses” (and to them the Horde is “winning” on all fronts; doesn’t matter if those wins are awful and are deliberately designed to not take pride in them). In this case, losing even a contested vanilla zone like Azshara is considered a grave personal attack.
Bluntly, the two factions operate in nearly entirely different Genre’s of fantasy. The Alliance truly is SUPER High Fantasy, and their races and reps represent that. The Horde in contrast, is relatively Low Fantasy (but Blizz is also not willing to fully invest in allowing the classic Warcraft fantasy theme to dissipate too much; so low fantasy is nothing BUT a handicap).
I will never forgive Blizz for forcing the low fantasy faction that they constantly tell us could never EVER hope to win a War against the Alliance (unless they were SUPER handicapped) to be the aggressors in another war. It just screams laziness and lack of forethought; hoping to cheat their way into this story through shock value (without putting in any of the legwork).
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Try to actually address the arguments presented rather using personal attacks.
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Ya, I feel you.
Meh … feel like I’ve tried that to death and its gotten me no where. Many horde players on here have tried the same. When it comes to THIS topic, its like talking with a brick wall; one that seems (to some degree) really have issues feeling empathy for the players on the other side of this fence. Those “Wins” that you keep using to justify your arguments are not “wins” for most Horde players; because they are deliberately portrayed by Blizz as something we are not supposed to take pride in (we’re meant to feel shame for our atrocities). But … you just do not seem to get that.
The Horde Faction ONLY is ever allowed wins the Horde Playerbase is supposed to feel bad about getting. Yes, somehow the Alliance “losing” (essentially being forced to hold back all the time because the power-fantasy imbalance between the two factions is absolutely friggen ridiculous) … despite the fact that they always “win” in the end (even if they spare the Horde) is worse? What?
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