“Ours is a cycle of hatred.” One side does something, then the other. Only way to stop that is to actually deal with the other side, which the original WoT plan would have done, or was intended to do
It got rectified that both Alliance and Horde decided that there is no war to be fought over the incident. If it wasn’t rectified then we would have been already at war in BtS.
Alright so this peace and need for an end to bloodshed cannot happen as long as the Horde exists right?
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I believe the argument she sold Saurfang was on paralyzing the Alliance by holding Teldrassil hostage and undermining each Alliance factions’ ties to one another, not wiping them out. If you’re going on Sylvanas’ hope to destroy Stormwind and raise all humans into undeath serving her, that’s a whole other can of beans.
They’re a defensive alliance against the Horde - Sylvanas’ own plan against them was exploiting the cracks that would form if they weren’t preoccupied with fighting the Horde. You don’t think that peace negotiations would give them any reason to change their defensive stance?
Like, say, negotiating with the other faction’s supreme leader who is completely obsessed with the idea of peace and is willing to compromise a lot for that goal?
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Both sides had just finished a massive fight with a world ending threat. If you and I are fighting some big guy and you kick me in the head while we’re fighting him, and afterwards we’re both near enough dead on our feet and need time to rest, that does not mean I was okay with you kicking me in the head.
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Or the Alliance if you want to spin it that way.
So this whole Crossroads cinematic and so called “Honor” horde you find a mistake and doomed to fail?
It has meant that for the Alliance, based on its previous reactions.
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Right. Otherwise Andiun and Sylvanas would not have been on speaking terms in BtS.
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I mean, Anduin even says the letter is not an offer of peace.
If you think I’m team honor horde, you are sorely mistaken.
I personally believe that yes, the honor horde is doomed to repeat this stuff over and over because it was built on one mans ideals, who didn’t stick around to make sure those ideals actually took serious root, and neither side can do the logical thing and actually deal with the threat.
Anyway I’m outy from this conversation, somehow got roped into doing Trengs work for him.
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Thanks for the discussion.
It was fun.
Once again, Nazjatar, where the Horde teams up with Genn.
Zoghal: You’re biased. I am the painted portrait of neutral objectivity.
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This is exactly the argument she sold Saurfang. The plan she sold him effectively boiled down to capturing Teldrassil, and using it as a point of contention to put pressure on Anduin’s weak and inexperienced leadership. To do this, the Kaldorei would require strong leadership to put that pressure on the Boy-King … and this is the CORE reason that Saurfang never once treats Malf and Tyrande as anything more than Obstacles best to be avoided if possible (because the plan Sylvie presented to him REQUIRED them to live); and even IF it didn’t fracture the Alliance as planned, the Horde could still sue for peace from a position of power.
In contrast though, A Good War makes it pretty apparent that the plan and reasoning Sylvie gave to Saurfang were not her own. She hints that she always expected Teldrassil to burn (eventually) several times in that short-story; implies that her intention was the destruction of not just the Kaldorei Nation (but its people); exhibits open irritation that BOTH Tyrande and Malf will not be on the front lines; and even goes so far as to suggest that entities LIKE Elune would try to get in her way. Hell, Saurfang’s final lesson for the WoT was essentially him realizing he did not understand her motives AT ALL (hence the reason it does make sense why he tried to manufacture the Alliance into killing her; because at that point … he could no longer trust his own judgement).
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it was a pretty stupid plan.
As soon as the Horde released the hostages the Alliance would be ready for war. There would be no reason for them to keep their word and I doubt Night Elves would have been the subservient captives the Horde expected them to be.
The plan was dumb and a cowardly from its very inception.
Whatever Sylvanas planned to do ultimately.
Lets switch the roles a bit. Imagine the Alliance occupying orgrimmar or silvermoon and running it like the Orc internment camps to bring the Horde to the negotiating table.
How long before Alliance leaves their occupied location would the Horde be ready for vengeance?
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OK … can I ask why you feel the need to post on some half baked Horde alt?
Because you’re bias is very apparent, and at times contradictory (with you believing the Horde simultaneously needs to suffer to grow; but also believing the Horde “can’t change”). You essentially seem to want the Horde to suffer for the sake of making them suffer … which is probably why you tend to NEVER actually focus on the AFTER the suffering in your posts (because despite the AFTER being the most important part of the lesson you wish to impart on the Horde through that arbitrary measure of suffering; you don’t really seem to care about it).
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When the Alliance loses. They grow.
See Jaina.
See Tyrande and the new night elves. Why does the Horde not get a similar service?
We lost Undercity but not in the same way and our undead are just more evil now I guess. Yay?
That quote is out of context. I never said the Horde can’t change. They clearly have. I was pointing out how Dealin’s and Saurfang’s ultimate reasoning were practically the same.
I have. Several times in fact but maybe you don’t find them good enough.
What on earth gave you that idea?
If by “growth” you mean going down a rabid vengeance trip and getting some wondrously convenient deus-ex-machina power up that allows for them to take action on that desire?
Also … no, I really have not seen you post a whole lot on what you mean by “growth” when it comes to the Horde after your suffering (outside of simply finding a more concrete justification for the Horde to hate the Alliance; but also be rendered in an even weaker position than they are now).
What you want is the Horde to be given the same style of motives for Vengeance that the Alliance has against the Horde … but also render the Horde so weakened that they would never have a chance to actually act on that?
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You yourself complain constantly about being under powered.
So yeah, I would love for Horde characters to have legitimate grievances that actually matter in the narrative and have those make the character more powerful.
We are already weak. This war should have ended with the vindicaar teleporting armies to stop the Horde advance. We had no chance of winning in the first place.
Just because we become a little “weaker” does not matter in the least. Character motivation is much more important right now to address this dumpster fire.
Just a moment ago you were complaining that I wanted the same power ups that gives Alliance their god like powers. So what is your complaint with me?
That I want the Horde getting convenient powerups or am I advocating that we get nerfed instead?
And there’s a problem too many times when the Horde loses it’s ignored, it’s glossed over, it happens and that’s it no growth afterwards.
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