100 years of peace then a war the kills everyone is sound logic to instead end the conflict with minimal deaths before it starts. The difference with the space goats is that was legitimate, they wouldn’t have attacked the orcs. The alliance? Not so much.
So was Daelin also right in his war?
Because one day the orcs and the Horde will repeat the same mistakes and so would therefore need to be destroyed?
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I don’t know why I’m humoring you when you’re a biased liar, but the orcs didn’t want this war. Sylvanas did. Saurfang tried to talk her out of it and the only way she could convince him was reminding him that Genn attacked her when the entire planet was facing the entire Burning Legion.
At the time that he said it, with the only contact the orcs and humans having being two people thirsty af for peace, yeah he was wrong. Stack up all the bad stuff both sides have done to each other since then and he’d be right, just like both Saurfang and Sylvanas were right.
Well no… the whole premise of what could happen in the future and preemptively act on it is exactly what convinced Saurfang to do what Daelin did.
Either they were both wrong or they were both right. We got to pick one.
As for
If we go by this line of thinking then Saurfang’s war (Teldrassil or not) has sown the seeds for this 100 year war. He has caused a grudge that can never be washed away.
The fact that Teldrassil happened has ensured this grudge will never be expunged.
Looks like I was entirely correct in just skipping your posts.
Nothing but confrontation and toxicity. Good day sir.
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When you make the decision to make a statement like “There can never be peace.” you’re right or wrong based on the information you have when you make the call, even if time proves you right. With the situation Dally P was presented with, peace was very much an achievable goal and he was part of a self fulfilling prophecy by dedicating himself against it. Daelin’s death is a sore spot for Kul Tiras to this day and propagates the bad blood and reason for war that wouldn’t exist if he didn’t commit himself against the idea, proven in Classic where you have Kul Tiras marines attacking the Horde.
With the information Sylvanas and Saurfang are presented with, with an example as recent as Stormheim, they are correct in saying peace isn’t going to happen forever.
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And Anduin as High King is not a good opportunity for peace?
Stormheim is worse than the recent memory of enslaved orcs, worse than the recent memories of WCII?
“The boy in Stormwind will not start a war tomorrow,” Saurfang said.
Her eyebrows lowered. “With Genn Greymane in his ear? We will see.”
That was a concern, Saurfang had to concede. In the thick of the fighting against the Burning Legion, Greymane had launched a mission to kill Sylvanas. It had gotten some of Stormwind’s few remaining airships destroyed.
There were whispers that Greymane had ordered the attack without Anduin’s permission, but as far as Saurfang knew, Greymane had not been punished. The implications of that were troubling,
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I don’t think anyone in the entire world. Real or fictional would be naive enough to think any peace would last forever.
The best way to preserve peace is to be prepared for war.
The problem with Saurfang and Sylvanas was that rather than preparing for war. They started one and should they have won it would have yielded nothing but pain instead of honor. Backstabbing a nation with no formal declaration of war is an incredibly dishonourable action.
We could reference real life history. Like the Japanese trying to ensure to issue their declaration before the strikes at pearl harbour. The fact that they failed to do so was incredibly humiliating to them on a world stage.
But his logic was sound, he made his judgment based on previous horde action just as Saurfang and Sylvanas did and rather than “prepare” for war they decided to start one to ensure they win it and ironically… both failed and lose in the process (just like the Japanese).
This is why I think Daelin was wrong in his actions and dishonourable.
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The difference is Daelin was unwilling to even entertain the idea of peace, tainting his reasoning from the start. Unwilling to see the Horde at the time was not in anyway the same Horde he was judging them as, where the Alliance is still very much the Alliance that attacked the warchief in Stormheim.
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I disagree. The faction war needs to end. The best possible result to come from the mess that is BfA is for all the warhawks to no longer be a factor.
This wasn’t a question. This was just a statement. To which my statement is no, this is not enough. None of that should have happened in the first place. But that any of it happened does not make Sylvanas getting an ascension or redemption arc appropriate in the context of the burning of Teldrassil. She should be killed off. The sooner the better.
I already responded to this above:
As for Genn being a threat to the Horde, I guess Lor’themar and Thalyssra don’t agree, and all the Horde players that team up with Genn in Nazjatar.
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Doesn’t Daelin have a quote, when Jaina begs him to stop indiscriminately slaying Horde, where he says that the Horde will never change and will try to kill the Alliance again? That seems about the same level of consideration for peace as Sylvanas had.
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Him saying they will never change is more proof that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about, since it’s not the same horde that he thinks it is and by doing what he’s doing he’s only making it more likely the orcs will do stuff in the future. The fact that she thought about how long peace would last at all is more consideration then Dally P gave. I’m not saying she gave it alot of thought, but more then him.
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I understand but that doesn’t absolve either side.
If you want to argue that Horde had changed I could point to Garrosh or Sylvanas as signs that the Horde can’t change
its all murky and kind of distractions. The whole idea was that peace would not last and yeah. That is a fair assumption.
But attacking your opponent in the back, with no declaration of war is not an honorable action.
We don’t even have the excuse that Genn did which was the idea that the Horde had betrayed the Alliance to the legion in the middle of a war. We straight up in peace time back stab a nation that had never attacked us because they belong to a military alliance.
Kill any and all who are in our way with the objective of conquering them and holding them hostage until we can achieve Peace Forever!
Am I crazy in thinking these are all horrific actions and were it to happen in the modern world would be instantly condemned at the UN?
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So, the Horde can change, but the Alliance can’t, and that’s why Sylvanas’ arguments work and Daelin’s don’t?
…and Sylvanas’ plan isn’t exactly this?
Daelin’s response was ‘orcs are orcs, they’ll just attack us again’. Sylvanas’ thoughts were ‘Alliance is Alliance, they’ll just attack us again after maybe 10 or 100 years of peace’ and you think the second one is a better condition for war?
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Considering Genn didn’t wait for more information that comes to light the fact he was doing what a dreadlord wanted him to do, no he’s not absolved in anyway. Things like Garrosh and Sylvanas come from a cycle of equally perpetuated hatred. For Garrosh it’s “Night elves stop trading much needed wood with us because of something someone in our military ALliance did / didn’t do (Wrathgate) and my people are going to die because of that.” One action creates another from both sides. Genns attack is what even gives the ground for this war to start.
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Considering her plan would have led to the end of the Alliance, no it wouldn’t because there would be nothing left to start up said stuff, unlike Dally P and the orcs, who was never going to be able to finish the job by himself.
And sure, the Alliance could change to the level the horde did, in fact they did when the Grand Alliance was dissolved and reformed as the modern Alliance. If Sylvanas and Saurfangs arguments were something to do with the old Alliance, like Daelins was for the old Horde, then yeah they’d both be wrong. The Alliance has no reason to change over the next 100 years, and neither did the Horde because what both sides has work (Until the writers decide it’s time to find ourselves again) and when both sides contain races who don’t really care about 100 years as a measure of time /shrug.
You blame Daelin for not seeing the Horde changed and pursuing the war because he didn’t trust the Horde.
Well Varian did trust the Horde after SoO. The Genn incident happened due to failure by both sides to communicate but after Legion the situation seemingly rectified. For whatever reason.
I would have loved it if the war began from that point but it didn’t.
Sylvanas and Genn started this war to achieve “Peace for Ever” and the reasoning was exactly as it was with the Draenei and it seems when Varian stayed his hand and gave a chance to the Horde was not at all considered in the decision making.
This makes it obvious no matter what Daelin or Varian did in those crucial moments ultimately matters to the Horde and the smallest fear or excuse is all they need for horrific actions like invading with no formal declaration. Against opponents that are not professional soldiers (that was Saurfang’s whole plan) and ultimately with the objective of holding an entire nation and race hostage.
These are not honorable actions no matter how you try to spin it and you can’t really excuse them by loose reasoning like “but they did this!” or “well we didn’t really want to kill women and children!”
I try to tune out any time a character says “FOR THE HORDE” because if I start thinking about the implications of the story and that statement I either have to pretend to be amoral or just a horrible dude.
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Well after what Saurfang and Sylvanas did the very reasons this war started have gotten a thousand times worse. I can’t imagine Saurfang being happy that this peace probably won’t last a hundred years thanks to him.
What he has done probably won’t make the peace last 10 years much less 100.
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How was the situation in anyway rectified post Legion? It was never formally addresed outside of one mention in one line in BtS that the Horde arnt aware of since Saurfang is under the impression he got off scotfree for it. That’s not rectified.