But just as importantly, for the Horde the Alliance needs to be the villain. We can’t have it as some sort of Alliance getting catharsis from defeating the Horde while the “good” horde tags along in approval.
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Because your position isn’t really “clear”. Your concept of suffering, as well as your solution to making the Horde undergo it is super murky. Also, is the Horde ALSO going to be allowed a bundle of deus-ex-machina power boosts to its characters like the Alliance seems to enjoy whenever a tragedy befalls them? Or … are there going to be any real characters left by the end of this mess?
And beyond that … despite forcing the Alliance to hold-back, Blizz does have a better history of building them back up when they take a hit. Even Varian’s death seems very deliberately planned for when Anduin’s character arc was ready to take the reins. Jaina’s arc led her back to Kul Tiras and reconnecting with her family and people again. I do expect something for the NEs down the road.
What about Blizz’s history and treatment of the Horde Faction over the last 9 years suggests even for a moment that they would put in the MASSIVE amount of resources and effort needed to rebuild what you want them to break? Or would they “look the other way” again? They aren’t just going to have to rebuild the Horde after ONE lost WW and Civil War; but TWO!
My guess … they’ll hurt the Horde in one way or another (we will know suffering, though more likely by Sylvanas than the Alliance) … then Blizz will jump right the hell into the Black Empire expansion (and just … ignore the Horde trying to pick up what pieces remain of our Faction Narrative; Characters; and Lore). Probably while we get to take a backseat to the Alliance again. ![:smiley:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/smiley.png?v=6" ":smiley:")
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And we do that… by making the Horde suffer MORE. Directly. BY. the. Alliance.
Do you understand what I am trying to push forward here?
The Alliance have so far kept their hands perfectly clean in all this and we can only dirty them by making the Horde suffer.
But the story has to invest in the Horde at the same time or it’ll just be a repeat of Lordaeron, a victory that the Alliance doesn’t feel is a victory because there were no real stakes to it, it was just made for the Alliance to defeat the horde in, but not to show the Horde losing anything. Suffering requires making sympathetic characters to suffer, not just announcing victories that don’t really translate well into the game.
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I know that is why Lordaeron and Darkshore were such regrettable misses.
People like Droite got it their way and we got this mess instead with no way out unless we punish the Horde way harder than it was necessary.
Its like ripping a bandaid. Instead of removing it quick we did it slowly and prolonged the suffering.
The problem with saying that the Horde needs to suffer more is that they will never even get to pretend that they are justified for wanting vengeance. When the Alliance suffers the narrative is framed in a way that justifies them wanting to dismantle the horde, they are allowed to want their rightful justice. I don’t think you’re going to get an Alliance character saying the night elves are morally wrong for wanting revenge for Teldrassil.
When the alliance makes a move against the horde that is even slightly questionable, we get some clownery excusing it (often from our own characters) such as “Taujaro was a legitimate military target, I’m going to exile my own people for wanting revenge for their friends and family” and “Jaina mowed down blood elves in the streets of Dalaran but she’s helping Baine now so you need to defend her from these Sunreavers who want to avenge their murdered friends.”
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I’d say it’s more the people who can’t bear to think of the Alliance as being in the wrong getting their way.
In any reasonable setting Genn started the war, and could have been used to push it forward. UC should have been first, and while the invasion of Teldrassil would have been intentional of course the burning should have been unintended. Then we could have a war that made a lick of sense and a situation where no one is so massively overwhelmingly wrong they’ll probably never get to be let to feel wronged by the other side.
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To answer both posts.
The Horde has suffered but each time Blizzard gave something to the Horde and then minimized what the Alliance did. Effectively negating it.
This is the crux of the issue and just as Horde players are disappointed they are being the villains the Alliance need the same disappointment.
It is the only way to spare characters the executioner’s block to somehow morally justify everything.
I wish the Horde suffered a terrible, terrible loss at Lordaeron and it wasn’t Sylvanas who got the last laugh but was instead utterly humiliated and disgraced while the Alliance had to deal with the repercussions of getting so many people killed in a war they felt justified in.
This way both sides feel justified however wrongly in what they have done.
You lost something.
I lost something.
Lets move on.
That is much more pleasant to me than.
You lost horrifically.
I kind of went nowhere and did a little soul searching.
Lets move on.
See where we’re running into a problem is how you’re coming at this problem.
We both lose things, one side that loss is actually represented in the story afterwards the others get forgotten once they’re done.
The situation in my view is more
We get tapped to do something bad
You heroically defeat us
CDEV goes “ok, the horde did their thing, let’s get back to stories about Alliance characters”
Horde goes into the background, we might lose a character in a matter of fact way if they have an awesome scene planned for an Alliance character’s death.
“hmm, there hasn’t been any faction tension, let’s have the horde do something evil again”
So without doing anything to give the Horde a stake in their story, to make Horde characters the priority in the Horde story, without giving us things that we can feel bad about losing, nothing will be a satisfying win for the Alliance. If horde losses continue to be sterile and meaningless to players as there’s been no story investment to make us feel that loss and it’s just “Alliance forces rolled over the defenses of a perfectly evacuated UC and Sylv did the bond villain thing” we’re just going to hear over and over how that really didn’t count as a loss to the horde and we need to lose and suffer MORE.
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The issue is that by this point it would be damned near impossible to portray the Alliance as villains; because those most likely to fall into that camp are portrayed as entirely justified for their thirst for vengeance. There is no way to flip the scrip at this point; and even if there were … its clear Blizz has always been very hesitant to pull that trigger fully.
Beyond that … I am uncertain what the end result you are expecting from such a tragedy (I fully expect consequences, I am not opposed to them … I am concerned with the “after”). Giving the Horde a genuine reason for contempt against the Alliance is one thing; but what good will it do if such an act renders the Horde into the exact same position the NEs are in (except, in their case, no god call to interfere to give them a chance at vengeance)?
The Horde would also have to have some chance at rebuilding after such an act … and the ONE (if not THE most important) topic regarding your “suffering” is what happens “after”? Its great to say we should break the Horde to pieces … but will there be an after? So … where is the time, assets, and resources necessary to properly DO this going to come from? And I genuinely think people are grossly underestimating how much damage has already been done.
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I mean, you could, but then why would anyone ever care about any complaints you had about content you didn’t like?
Same goes for anyone saying that the Horde should suck it up.
I do not think these were appropriate amount of time that the Bilgewater or Gilneans have had to still weight (and the Gnomes even longer than that), so, no I do not think the Night Elves should wait a few patches, either. Validating Blizzard on these kinds of time tables is the complete opposite of what I would support.
My question is then, if you did content you didn’t like that made you feel like a villain, then why wouldn’t you do content that would atone for that? Obviously in either situation you can choose not to do the content at all. But you did choose to do the War of the Thorns event, so, would you honestly not do, say, a Battlefield: Ashenvale event where the Horde rebels come to help the Night Elves get their land back to start atonement? There would probably at least be some collectable to get out of it, as there usually is.
I think you’re in the wrong thread.
Are you enjoying the Horde being the villain? I don’t think you are. If you don’t, then your wanting the Alliance to be the villain sounds as uncaring to the Alliance fans as Zoghal is coming off towards the Horde fans.
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I didn’t really look into previews before I did them and I wanted to see how bad Blizzard screwed it up since they already went with an order that made less sense than the reverse.
That sounds horrible. I have enough problems in the past about what little Tauren story there is being either wiped out or just folded into the massive amounts of story the night elves already have.
I have the problem of the Horde being the villain on the Horde side.
Camp Taurajo before the what, Tides of War retcons, I think was a good example.
As a Tauren there was no question this was an atrocity, the Alliance attacked a peaceful camp that had never bothered the Alliance. We get to see the last moments of NPCs we had quested with as they try to defend others, save the children, help other’s escape. Then we go and get our retribution and help save the survivors.
For the Alliance it was not intended to be as bad as it ended up happening. Bad intel sent them there in the first part, conscript troops commited some crimes you get to clean up as a good thing, and an attempt at saving lives went wrong.
Alliance was definitely painted as the villain in the horde questing, but the Alliance got to see a different picture that made their actions understandable if tragic.
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I am … intrigued by this concept, and absolutely into it … though I do wonder; we sort of wronged the wrong people to ever really ever earn that atonement (nor do I ever think we could)?
On top of this, Blizz would have to juggle this with the Horde rebuilding itself (nearly from scratch in several ways). They would have to repair effectively two entire World Wars/Civil Wars worth of damage (the consequences of neglecting to do it the first time). Unfortunately, I refer back to the harsh reality that Blizz … doesn’t have a particularly good track record on rebuilding the Horde (they are liable to just jump into the next big bad arc right after BfA … and “ignore” the catastrophic damage they’ve done to the factions Lore; Fantasy; and Races … again).
TBH … the best route for BOTH faction (and ALL PC races) is for Blizz to invest in an Anti-Cata expansion. One of small racial stories spread across the existing world to allow the world they keep breaking to pieces a chance to rebuild (and the players to reconnect with their factions and PC races/lore). I … am uncertain how this would play out however with the Horde territories likely being halved … The Kaldorei may still get their territories back; the Forsaken … atm the only way they’ll ever get theirs returned is the harbinger of their Racial Fantasies destruction Calia.
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But would you actually not play it?
So you want the Alliance to be villains, but on the Alliance side for the Alliance to still look like heroes?
Because frankly Southern Barrens is probably my among my most despised content. It’s stupidity at its highest. Vengeful Tauren blow up Dwarves that had nothing to do with Taurajo, then Dwarves bury Goblins alive in revenge for what a dying Tauren hired to be done.
And the Alliance did not get out looking good, either. General Hawthorne gets betrayed and left for dead by the slimy Ambassador Gaines so that he could take over and make the Alliance more aggressive - literally says “The General here has ordered some tactical strikes, but he stops short of genocide. I have no such qualms” and then “The General is too preoccupied with the looters in Taurajo. Too soft! We ought to be focused on our next move against the Horde. … What’s this? A death warrant for the General here! This is good to know… Very good to know…”
I would rather play out the Burning of Teldrassil again than ever play through Southern Barrens or anything like it ever again.
Vol’jin and Thrall are back. Baine is still alive. Saurfang is actually a character now instead of a Chuck Norris meme. Rokhan has had plenty of screen time, even if Blizzard hasn’t wanted to officiate him being the leader of the Darkspear yet. Really, all BfA has been is a very slow rebuilding of the Horde back to Warcraft III Horde at the expense of everything else, be it Night Elves, Zandalar, or the Forsaken.
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When has the Alliance EVER been respected?
If it wasn’t having the likes of Tirion telling us we’re WRONG for daring to hate the Horde, that we’re being petty children for even DARING to think a slightly negative thing about them, then it’s having our cities destroyed or with a gigantic flaming crater in Stormwind for years.
Where has the Alliance been respected? Certainly the Horde has never respected the Alliance, and the Neutrals all look down on it for conflict with the Horde (as if the Horde is innocent in it). Even Taran Zhu, an outsider, blames the Alliance as much for war and conflict as the Horde.
What respect is the Alliance shown that you want so badly for the Horde, because as far as I can tell, that’s asking for a whole lot of butt-whooping and bruised egos in Team Red.
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dunno.
You do know that those dwarves wiped out that vengeful Tauren’s entire tribe for the crime of being bothersome by continuing to try to get them to stop digging up their land? (forget if it’s sacred or burial site type deal)
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Which he never brings up.
- The Alliance has hired in Wildhammer mercenaries to control the skies over the Battlescar. I believe these same gryphon-riders were the ones to firebomb Taurajo during the attack.
He doesn’t even actually know if it was Wildhammer that did the firebombings. He just assumes it and has them killed.
It’d be no better than if the Night Elves came to Mulgore to start killing Tauren Shaman without any evidence that any of them were the ones that accelerated the fires that consumed Teldrassil.
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Vol’jin and Thralls participation going forward is miasmic at best; with the prior still having no real indication on what his fate will be, the latter’s involvement depends entirely on the whims of Chris Metzen. However, the themes are there for what you suggest (however, I personally do hope for a creation of a new Horde that is more inclusive to ALL its members; rather than a return to the WC3 that never allowed much room for those not of the WC3 racial themes). It would at least make it feel less like the last 15 years were just a failed social experiment.
The induction of the Horde’s ARs is the key. So far, each of them has served to empower (at least thematically) their respective CORE races (while serving to differentiate them more). This is particularly important for the fundamental breakdown of the WC3 Horde races as a political entity (weakening their Faction power, but enhancing their racial power). This “potentially” provides more room for the Elves, Goblins, and Undead to enhance their own influence. In essence, if the Horde needs to fall to ruins … renewal and rebirth (not a slavish maintenance) is a better route.
And … as a side note, Sylvie’s narrative is coming at the expense of EVERYONE’S story right now. BfA is HER expansion … and almost no one elses by the looks of things.
it’s continued on from Vanilla.
"In solitude I wander these roads.
The dwarves of Bael Modan show no respect for my land. Horrendous blasts drive holes deep into the ground as noisy machines rip apart the hills. Lands which once served as home and provider to my tribe are now riddled with destructive dwarves.
Attempts at reaching a diplomatic resolution have failed. Now is the time for decisive action.
Drive the dwarves from the Bael Modan excavation by force and bring to me the journal of their leader, Prospector Khazgorm."
“Many innocent tauren lost their lives or were forced off their ancestral birthplace when the dwarves of Bael Modan arrived. My land must be reclaimed!”
Ok, might not have been as thorough a slaughter as I remembered. Thought there was a quote of him being the last but can’t find it.,
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Not exactly on the topic at hand, but I was actually quite annoyed with the Baine rescue scenario and I wanted to refuse to do it. The problem is that Blizzard often hides in-game stuff behind these sorts of quests. Moreover, from a game design perspective, “don’t do the content” is never an acceptable answer.
To answer your question to Tarrok about not wanting to do ‘reparation’ questlines or however you put it - think of it this way. If you had to do content you didn’t like, why would you then want to do content that punishes you for doing the content you didn’t like? “Acknowledging that you did wrong and trying to atone” versus “Being forced to apologize for something you didn’t even want to do” are two very different tones. If you didn’t want to be the bad guy in the first place, why would you want to be forced to apologize for it?
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