That is fine. We just need our own moral justification and if the Alliance does something unspeakable (especially done by None-NEs) it would be a great rallying cry.
Besides simply put it is better than nothing.
Some may argue that it is while others may claim that going so far is completely unjustifiable.
That is how you get a morally grey war because right now you have a pitch black vs pitch white right now. That needs to change immediately.
I can’t take comments like this seriously.
To the Alliance directly? Because the only one we can really reference to is Taurajo. We need something bigger. Something big but non consequential.
If Undercity was destroyed by the Alliance with all the undead inside (on purpose or not) it would give the Horde just as much justification and certainly explain why the Forsaken are so vehement in their destruction of Darkshore.
It is a presentation issue.
It takes away from the Alliance retribution they so desperately crave as well as take away any incentive for the Horde to do what they are doing now.
Which brings me back to my point that the Horde needs to suffer.
Ok, right only the Alliance has suffered through the horrors of being written as the good guys, and to remedy that we must take the Horde. Which has apparently certainly not been suffering under being relegated to the baddies in the Alliance story and need to pile on even more, oh wait, sorry, forgot that the Horde doesn’t suffer. And pile on massive suffering on to them to fix the story!
I don’t want a “morally” grey war. I want this absolutely trash Faction Conflict narrative to finally die, because all it ever does is destroy (it creates absolutely nothing). They killed one of my favorite Horde characters by trash-mob (who survived having his throat slit with a blade coated in poison deliberately designed to nullify troll regeneration) to shove Sylvie in the drivers seat to justify this nonsense (and we’re all just forced to wait around till she inevitably betrays us).
Its a weak story foundation designed exclusively to justify PvP on a story level (and never evolved beyond that). Its also absurd, because the Horde is portrayed as far FAR too weak to actually challenge the Alliance (especially with their rapid influx of demi-god tier heroes that they’ve enjoyed lately). The Horde always loses these bouts of nightmare storytelling … in more ways that one. God … I can’t wait to go back to being an awkward side-kick in the Alliance’s story again in future expansions. After all, rebuilding the Horde after they break us is NOT Blizz’s MO (its ignoring the catastrophic damage they did to the faction as much as possible).
Your solution requires a complete rewrite of the current one.
It is not a bad idea per se, but I am just trying to push a solution that can work with what we got.
I don’t know how many times I can repeat myself. But if you do not see it that way fine nothing I can do about that.
Blizzard took a steaming dump on the story with WoT.
Then as a Horde player playing it they grabbed me by the back of the neck, smacked me across the nose with a newspaper, rubbed my face in the mess they made while yelling at me about how horrible I was.
I do not want to play out any damn retribution for how I was treated as a player of the game.
If you look up above in the thread, I talk about how I’m ok with the horde losing big to the Alliance, as long as it treats the Alliance in a way that they are shown to the Horde to be a credible existential threat, and that there’s no superweapon nonsense like we usually pull.
But I will not pay atonement to the Alliance for that storyline.
You seem to be unable to seperate the Horde as a faction in a narrative with yourself the player which seems to be the crux of the issue.
Maybe you think you have been punished enough by this terrible story but for that story to improve we need the Horde as a fictional entity to suffer something decisive to push their narrative in a more positive way.
Nope.
For the story to improve the heroes of the Horde storylines need to be the Horde not the Alliance. And the Alliance need to be the antagonist of the Horde storyline as well. As long as we’re just hit with the villain bat you’ll never be satisfied with any loss the Horde has taken. Since at least according to your earlier statement you don’t feel that the Alliance won the battle of UC.
Question: Did you play through the Horde side of the War of the Thorns event? I see you have the Undercity Plaguebat, but you could have also gotten that from doing the Alliance side and getting the Teldrassil Hippogryph.
I mean, if I really wanted to be a dick … I could say the NEs could suck it up and tolerate the rebuilding process being just ignored or skipped over.
It happened to the Horde after SoO. Hell, the Darkspear suffered unprecedented losses during MoP (so much so that there are threads rightfully asking how they aren’t extinct) … and their only reward for all that trouble was squandered by Blizz (when the guy who’s regeneration was so strong that he survived getting his throat slit with a blade coated in poison designed to negate Troll regeneration); got squandered after not being allowed to do a damned thing … by a trash mob.
If the Darkspear can wait MAYBE two years to get a chance at relevance again (and “maybe” a new developed representative); and the Bilgewater and Gilneans can wait 8 to get even a slight wiff of concluding their Cata intro stories; the NEs can wait a few patches at their chances at revenge.
We were denied anything that might make it feel personal so that the Alliance didn’t feel like they might have done wrong, but yes. The Alliance steamrolled over the Horde and won hands down.
Yes I did, that’s why I’m so adamant on this one. The horde questline was a massive guilt trip. So many elves who should be scary warriors saying things like “I can’t hear the birds any more” and stuff about their families.
This isn’t about the NE’s it is about the Horde and unless the Horde is allowed real suffering like the one at Teldrassil they will never be allowed to grow like the Alliance (See Night Elves and see Jaina).
And the Alliance is asking exactly what you are complaining about.
So why are you so against the idea to make the Horde truly suffer?
About as much as the Horde steamrolled the Night Elves.
I’m not sure how you could punish the NPC horde in a way that can’t get written off as them deserving it, though. You can make them suffer, sure, but I still don’t think the horde would be justified in striking back when they’re the ones that consistently punch first.
We lost so many good opportunities with Lordaeron and Darkshore.
The best we can hope for is that in 8.2.5 Tyrande does something but this would be so much more justified than if anyone else did it.
I feel like the way you quantify “suffering” is heavily skewed; and I am really starting to agree Tarrok that you are the type to discount Horde suffering.
I mean Theramore wasn’t objectively that big a deal, in large part thanks to Baine urging Jaina to at least start evacuating the civilians (she should have heeded him more). It was a military target; they were funding the Alliance war effort; those troops that caused the Taraujo tragedy where largely conscripts and officers from Theramore. Jaina DID allow her city to become embroiled in the faction conflict … either passively (or even actively in some cases).
Teldrassil is a very different beast to Theramore (once you get past the shock value of both events).
The alliance had 8-1 numbers against us and the horde was fielding basically the watch and civilians at Lordaeron, and we held you off for a week or two?
Are you asking for another “and this is how the Alliance white knights all over the Horde and kills Sylvanas and then the horde makes atonement?” suffering or a “Alliance gets shown in the light the horde always is in, you have bonfires of forsaken, merciless night elves killing anyone who gets close to their trees, and the more imperialistic factions like the humans and dwarves are out for conquest and win a series of ruthless blows against the horde that kill and displace tons of civilians that the horde players have to save or memorialize as a testament to how dire a threat the Alliance holds to the Horde?”
I do not know how much more I can make my position more clear. You both have your minds made up and it appears no matter what I say you won’t address it. You either backtrack and try to rewrite the story or push the idea that everything is now in perfect equilibrium that all that is needed is to end everything.
As far as I understand it.
This little discussion is going in circles and I do not know where it goes from here.
No I am saying in a perfect world we would have had the Undead citizens caught in the cross fire in UC and the blighting of UC was more accidental or purposeful by some elements of SI:7 rather than Sylvanas.
Or
In Darkshore we have some simple Horde farmers that have come to settle the new land with no crimes under their belt but still get slaughtered. They should not have been there but it was still justified nonetheless.
Yes Horde needs a decisive defeat similar to how burning of teldrassil was presented, so they can be just as justified as the Alliance.
And I am saying this suffering is what the Horde needs right now to boost their moral and show that maybe we are not the only ones that are evil.