Yes I agree. I have the same complaint about some of my own faction leaders.
I fully understand your point.
As a Tauren player how would you change the Derek issue and how Blizzard decided to present it?
Baine has to do this rescue mission though. There is no way around it but you get to choose how he acts.
What would you do?
I don’t know if I’d say that changing that scenario would be the fix. It’s just a symptom. Ideally it would be by fleshing him out so that he shows up for the Tauren, it’s pretty much in character for him otherwise (I’d also like to see him have the type of doubts about Anduin and Jaina as Jaina has about Thrall in Crossroads, I mean right after they helped him take back TB the alliance did invade, destroy that camp I’m not allowed to talk about, and may or may not have laid seige to Mulgore)
If not that, maybe something less active. He lets Derek go, hell, even he tries to put Derek out of his misery but is convinced to let him go. But really I’d prefer just that he stay open to diplomacy and good relations he just interacted more with the Tauren.
I understand but the Derek turning event has taken place.
Would you have rathered Baine witnessed this and done nothing?
How are you going to get your honorable Horde when not only have they done the same actions as the first Horde on Dreanor (Demon blood crazed and all) and now doing the same thing that the Lich King did.
These two events are taking place by the Horde according to Blizzard’s writers and just as neither of us can change it.
What would you have rathered Baine do? Just watch? At what point do you want him to stop being Sylvanas’ lackey?
The horde was born to lose and does so every day just by existing. It was formed of for and by the loser races and everythig we do is wrong.
Well the whole problem is the nonsensical turn the story took in WoT. I think the only way to fix the problems that that caused were to extend to Horde the usually reserved for Alliance aggression retcon and change how things went down between expansions. It’s unsalvageable from what I know of the story. I don’t think you can keep having a player faction stuck under the thumb of what blizzard made us do.
I don’t really want that honor horde, at least not the one that keeps coming up here that’s basically just an excuse to try and exclude the forsaken and blood elves. I want a way to bring it back to the whole band of survivors who have differences and band together so they can watch each other’s back. I like the flavor that brings to the faction.
And again, the problem isn’t as much that Baine delivered Derek to Jaina. It’s that he only acts as part of alliance related stories, so removing that isn’t going to mean that Baine suddenly was shown to have cared one tiny bit about the lives lost in the “military target” he wrote off before.
As for how to get back to a horde I’d like I posted in the sister thread to this one, and I didn’t even get vindictive and hope the Alliance got the whole Horde Bias treatment in there. I want an Alliance that is a reasonable (as in not mustache twirling but based on things real nations do) existential threat to the horde.
You know we have a real life example of how to handle genocide. Its ww2.
Do you know what we didnt do? Kill random germans, italians, or Japanese indiscriminatly after the allied forces won the war.
Wanna know what we did do? We tried individuals for warcrimes and exicuted them (those few tht didnt commit suicide) . Heck we forgave russia and STALIN.
Frankly the scenario that took place in ww2 was far worse. Forced labor camps designed to starve them to death over months vs. The burning of teldrisil, which really wouldnt have been super painful or last long. Most everyone would have been unconscious or dead from smoke inhalation and not felt anything.
That being said there are no direct correlations between the nations and individuals from ww2 and the characters of world of warcraft. I see how people would handle the fictional events as more a thought experiment.
So are you saying that the Alliance should:
March from Darkshore to Orgrimmar.
Occupy half the city.
And then execute
Sylvanas Windrunner
Nathanos
Varok Saurfang
Baine Bloodhoof
Lor’themar Theron
Jastor Gallywix
Ji Firepaw
Thalyssra
Mayla Highmountain
Geya’rah
Talanji
And any other major commanding officer.
for war crimes and then install a new set of character as new leaders for the Horde?
I wouldn’t mind that but I am pretty sure this would destroy the Horde faction as we know it.
I still don’t think it will work to try to quantify the amount of pain or damage done in the burning of Teldrassil and then duplicate that against the Horde. If this was a single player game maybe, but Horde players have to play too. How much castigation do they have to take until we have our revenge? Besides, I worry that if too much revenge is done and too much death is meted out than Tyrande or Elune will be a future raid boss and as a Night Elf player that does not sound fun.
The thing is NEs and Alliance have already lost. It is doubtful they would lose again.
I never understood this point. It happened to the Alliance player and they are still expected to keep playing.
Why not the Horde? What makes them different?
Maybe something akin to this. Right now the war isnt over. Like i stated before, stalin wasnt tried and he was a horrific person. So those that essentually switch sides (saurfang, baine, lor’themar, thalyssra) should be pardoned. There are a few maybes in the list but blizzard does far too much off screen to really get an idea where they stand.
And yes any major comanding officer or individual that stood out as being particularly heinous. I really dont see a problem with some sort of occupation. At this point 2 warchiefs have declared war on the alliance. Really we may need for the horde faction to be destroyed as we know it. Its far better than all these other outrageous and vindictive ideas people.are throwing out.
Really the major problem is blizzed made one hell of a screw up with the only real solution time travel shenanigans.
I can agree to those terms.
This would have been my go to solution.
The Horde player gets a brand new harbor for Orgrimmar as a sweetner.
If Tyrande and Elune cut a bloody swath across Horde territory or take part in some atrocity to rival the burning of Teldrassil, I could see Blizzard making them into villains. It would be a twist right? An alliance leader as a bad guy. Makes sense story wise, but I don’t really like it.
I don’t want to make Horde players deal with their own version of Teldrassil. I want a satisfying conclusion to the Teldrassil story. One that makes the Alliance (and Night Elves in particular) feel competent, victorious (at least against Sylvanas in some way) and avenged. Then there can be some kind of closure and we can move on. Looking for revenge for Teldrassil can’t go on forever.
So what zones do the horde players gain in return for that so that we don’t get punished in leveling gameplay experience to handle a lore issue?
And what do you suggest?
Canonically the Horde now has Ashenvale, Darkshore and supposedly Teldrassil is gone completely.
Meanwhile Lordaeron and Trisfal Glades are completely abandoned and blighted.
However right now both of us can make a Night Elf or Forsaken character and level them to 60 in those zones. Losing territory in BFA doesn’t impact your leveling gameplay.
This is what I worry about. I don’t think we should be playing tit for tat with who gets what to make up for losing something else. There should be a way to make Night Elves feel avenged without slaughtering half the Horde character roster and burning Kalimdor down.
Fair enough, too many times I just run into people with a chip on their shoulder about Cata who want to change the in game world to fix these things. I can live with a lore change.
I do have a chip on my shoulder about Cata but that is for a completely different set of reasons and this is not the place to discuss it.
This is what I posted earlier today:
I don’t think we should be focused on slaying a certain number of Horde characters or taking over a certain number of zones. I think it matters more to create a story moment where it feels like we actually did something to Sylvanas. Not in some future raid where Thrall and Jaina team up or something, but something Night Elf focused that can feel cathartic, satisfying, and lead to the beginning of a new Night Elf story.
Why only Sylvanas? The entire Horde is guilty.
I am open to hearing your ideas of how just dealing with Sylvanas is suppose to bring any sort of satisfying conclusion to all this. Just getting what we lost would just leave us where we started.
Hold my Kaldorei Ginger Wine.