The horde doesn't need a devastating defeat

Lore Story Forum
566

More or less what Droite said.

A few things, fellow blue-posters. One- the Horde is a playable faction. Full of half of the game’s player base. Remember how crappy Cata felt for the Alliance, where the emotional impact of the content was “Alliance loses all the time”?

That shouldn’t be how any faction feels, at least, not against its counter parts.

Second, the only way this works is if the script gets flipped. The Alliance commits some big, actual atrocity. Not some “that one thing they did in an intro quest that is never relevant beyond it.”, Not “that one minor camp that was destroyed in story off screen in the midst of a total world revamp.”, Not that “Time Jaina did some stuff, but it is confined to the quest itself, and otherwise lost in the sea of the next psychotic thing the Lich Queen is doing.”

If it were to be done, it would have to be the Alliance, clearly, doing it, the PC would have to be involved, and it would have to remind players of it every single time the place it happens is referenced. Theramore. Teldrassil. The Vale of Eternal Blossoms. Gilneas. Not that it was even current horde at the time, but Netherwind.

Third, for the rest of the Xpac, the Alliance gets reminded about how evil that action was. Furthermore, everything the Horde does for the expansion is going to be stacked against the atrocity, and thus justified to an extent. Horde kills some perpetrators with a mess of collateral damage, raises a few as Forsaken? Tough cookies, Alliance did the big atrocity. Horde has a raid in the Alliance’s Xpac capital and kills a new NPC leader we just got? Alliance had it coming. Good Alliance NPCs turning on whatever characters support or were involved in the attack and work with the Horde? That’s what a hero does. The game gets framed in the context of the atrocity, and everything to some extent revolves around it.

Finally, and this one is important- I know many of you feel the Alliance gets the sharp end when it comes to consequences, right? And one of the expressed frustrations is that “Horde do bad thing, Alliance do random kinda meh thing, stuff happen, NPC says a thing, and no consequence.” So, do you really think the Alliance would get the same treatment? If you truly believe Blizz to have particular proclivities regarding how they treat the factions, do you think it would end with Lor’themar telling the collected Alliance leaders that if they are bad, the Horde will end them, and their cities intact?

Or would it end up with a corpse pile, a city with long lasting physical damage, and possibly NPCs free-willed into zombie servitude?

Because there’s no rule that the reverse would play out the same way, after all.

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567

Considering this is Blizzard writing, I’d imagine the Plagues of Elune would turn out to be a precursor to setting her up as a future raid boss that needs to be put down.

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568

I agree with the last few posts. I’ve been agreeing with them since at least November:

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569

A few things come to my mind.

Firstly, as some Horde players like to tell me about the genocide at Teldrassil, a plagues of Elune scenario would cost the Horde playerbase nothing, gameplay-wise. Not even a capital city. It’s purely an emotional loss, that in no way hinders their progression through the game.

Secondly, the Horde’s continued existence, after piling atrocity on atrocity on atrocity is the epitome of Horde bias and plot armor. No story direction, good or bad, Horde or Alliance, is going to change that. The Alliance is already in the back seat, with Anduin, and now Jaina, being tools to push the plot-armor-peace that saves the Horde from justice, vengeance, and any meaningful consequences besides which talking head sits in the big chair in Grommash Hold. The expansion was kicked off with the destruction of an Alliance capital city and genocide of an Alliance playable race, just so a single Orc could so a little soul searching. Everyone wants to say nothing bad should happen to the Horde, because it’s a playable faction. Do you think Night Elf players get the game for free, or something?

Thirdly, and much more minorly, I like the idea of a wizened old Lun’alai trying to explain to the Horde in general what exactly is going on in a hypothetical plagues of Elune situation.

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570

This part I agree with, and why I think Etheldald has the right idea, in what the game needs is not punishment for the Horde, but for appropriate amounts of positive content being given to the Night Elves. Specifically the Night Elves. Not Jaina. Because while Jaina’s latest content has been nice and all, in the context of the burning of Teldrassil (hey, at least Thrall mentioned it), Jaina and Saurfang reflecting upon it is aggravating and just drills into the mind how the Night Elves are still being kept off the stage (and yes Droité et al, the Night Elves have had huge amounts of stage time throughout the game already, but in the context of the burning of Teldrassil it’s not appropriate to keep them off the stage now).

But, can we really have expected any better from Blizzard? This is their trend. They tear down the Horde with Garrosh, and then what effort was put into rebuilding them? Nothing in Warlords of Draenor. Somehow erasing them even more in Legion. And then BfA is their answer to the absence of Horde content.

I’m honestly amazed we got Darkshore as a Warfront at all. But once again I’m not expecting Blizzard to actually follow up with anything.

But even in the light of that, yeah, I’ll take Anduin and Jaina letting the Horde off the hook rather than Tyrande getting villain batted.

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571

On this we certainly are of agreement. It is honestly shocking that Blizz decided that the destruction of their home and the cremation of thousands of their civilians was the time to “dial back” on the Kaldorei content? Blizz … for real? Hell, for that matter where is the Forsaken content (NOT Sylvanas content, FORSAKEN content)? Shouldn’t THEY also be a focal point of this expansion, them dealing with the consequences of the loss of UC; or what happened at Arathi?

That is NOT to say I don’t like the content for Jaina and Saurfang (because, I actually do) … but like … they shouldn’t be the primary focal points of this story Blizz. In fact, with the rebellion in FULL swing, and Kul Tiras now behind us … it SHOULD be time to combine the “Rebellion Narrative” (and ALL related characters) into a single backseat mass, and 8.2.5; 8.3; and 8.3.5 should be fixated on the drivers-seat Kaldorei and Forsaken narratives (because it is THEIR direction as peoples that is most on the line). If N’Zoth has to play with his toys in the background until next expansion to do that … cool; that seems more his style than going full Godzilla anyway.

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572

Forcing us to kill the one person trying to hold monsters accountable for their actions isn’t villain-batting her. It’s villain-batting us, in some weird masterstroke of sUbVeRtInG eXpEcTaTiOnS.

573

While I am not the biggest Tyrande fan (though she has grown on me after Val’sharah), I definitely don’t want to kill her. Nor do I want to play as a Horde NPC to kill her a la the Jaina fight just so it can be technically said “See, the Alliance didn’t kill Tyrande. Only the Horde did.”

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574

It hasn’t, though?

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575

To be fair, one of the worst parts about Warlords of Draenor is not showing at all what was going on back on Azeroth, so we don’t really know how relations between the Alliance and the Horde even were during that time.

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576

You know very well that wont be how it would be portrayed, and it would be a decidedly terrible thing for the Kaldorei as a people (because the consequences of that act, the act of killing Saurfang on the precipice of ending the war … is not something I can see coming down positively for them).

The reasons for this are simple, you’d back the Horde people’s into a War were they believe that have no other alternatives than to side with Sylvanas for their own self preservation (and A Good War certainly shows what happens when you push a population into a corner like that); and it would place the bill for continuing that war squarely on the shoulders of the greater Alliance. So, the Alliance would have no other alternatives than to either commit to the destruction of the Horde (impossible, since this is a two faction game; and costly, because their navy was just decimated) … or leave the Kaldorei to try to largely take vengeance on their own (which … I don’t honestly believe they are in a position of strength to take, even WITH their deus-ex-machina God Call).

Do you WANT a “Mostly” Red Kalimdor? Because Tyrande targeting Saurfang instead of Sylvanas is how you’d likely get and justify a “Mostly” Red Kalimdor!

577

Because trying to break the Germans forever after their defeat definitely didn’t backfire on the Allies after WWI right?.. right???

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578

Not even that. It would just place the blame squarely on Tyrande. Anduin would stay squeaky clean, and the story would revolve around how Anduin was right and should have been listened to all along so there could have been peace.

I think you underestimate the power of Anduin. If he didn’t commit to this after Teldrassil, he won’t commit to that just because Tyrande would start something.

579

Forgiving the Horde after Garrosh gave us Teldrassil scenario.
So if forgiving is the wrong answer. What is the correct answer if not righteous vengeance?

The Horde is pathetic as a playable faction on a narrative level. Nothing threatens it and yet they are always jaded.
They complain about being judged before they are even given a chance to prove themselves and yet continuously do evil things. A good portion of their playable races are actively evil in their respective lands (see goblins and forsaken) with seemingly zero consequence.

Like. Come on.

We executed most of the german high command, decimated their defences up to their capital city and then occupied them for a few decades as we rebuilt them.
Do you want that for the Horde?

Btw, you are comparing your faction to WW2 Germany. Thats how low the bar is my friend.

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580

I don’t think his choices would matter much at that point (and I am still waiting for that Betrayal that will run the Alliance thrones red with blood … which god I hope it is not Tyrande). Tyrande severing the literal head of the rebellion in Saurfang would be a sign for the Horde that their very survival is on the line. And interesting twist on how this war started to be sure, but while the Horde is weaker than the Alliance (they aren’t SO weak that the Alliance should want to get involved in that sort of meat-grinder of a situation).

And yes … I do understand the Doomhammer and Saurfang parallels going on right now (they are stupid strong, and I sort of hate them Blizz). So I understand that like Teldrassil Blizz could sweep Tyrande’s killing Saurfang under the rug in some way; but I am also very aware that the only reason the Horde as a whole is not currently redoubling its efforts to stomp out Tyrande’s foothold situation in Darkshore right now (with the Alliance fleet in Naz’jatar) … is because Saurfang’s rebellion has just opened up another front in the South.

581

I mean, yeah. That’d probably be the point I pack it in altogether, and quit (heck, I’m not even playing as it is, and you lot are only graced with my presence by the generosity of another). But, forcing us to kill her is not the same as making her a villain. As I stipulated before, the only way to do so would be for her to begin purposely and actively harming the Night Elf people. But, everything she’s doing, she’s doing for the sake of her people. Hence, Tyrande=good, Anduin=bad, hypothetical raiders=extra bad.

582

How exactly are Goblins “evil”? Because they aren’t nature huggers like the NEs? Individuals are certainly, but as a race … they really aren’t particularly evil.

Have you looked at Goblin lore? They are one of the most “Build Your Way Up from Nothing” races in this game. They are not Titan Construct Legacies; They aren’t blessed by every God in existence like the Kaldorei; They were experimented on by Mimiron; they were enslaved for the majority of their peoples history; they ONLY managed to take their freedom through long term generational exposure to a radioactive element; and they don’t particularly have any real physical or magical assets that could help them survive or excel in this world.

What they are is smart, and ruthless. They rely heavily on tech to overcome their racial weaknesses; and yeah … that tech relies on them harvesting natural resources. Could they do it in a cleaner way? Sure, but it is still necessary for their survival.

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583

I’m more betting on a retcon where Sylvanas admits she left Varian for dead at the Broken Shore intentionally and had planned it all along.

That’s already the case, as we saw in the Baine rescue scenario:

    Rowa Bloodstrike says: Just wait... The Alliance will destroy us...

Or start killing other Alliance people trying to stop her.

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584

Its more like they do not care about anything other than profit or some other project.
That makes them selfish.
I don’t think there are many places goblins have occupied that did not require the surrounding area to be decimated.
I think the sole exception is the steamwheedle cartel.

She prayed to NE god to obtain power and call herself the Khaldorei vengeance.
Now is this going to be an afterschool special PSA that vengeance is wrong? Maybe.
But unless this vengeance is not over yet we will see more before it is done with.

585

Some are. Ricket came to help the Defenders/Avengers of Hyjal.

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