Does this look like the face of evil, to you?
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Yes yes it does
If you’re bringing the writers into this then it’s even more relevant when they’re the ones deciding that honor is what the Horde is actually all about if they have the rebels win again.
Why are you talking to yourself again? I covered the definition and how it doesn’t apply to Teldrassil. You’re the one who doesn’t understand the definition because the way you applied it could also apply it to a planet. In short, yes, I was calling you absurd indirectly and now have had to explain why you were absurd.
As usual, it’s actually you who brought up things you then argue against yourself for.
Glad we cleared that up.
Sylvanas still thinks she can win, and stealing the wallet was necessary for goal. Destroying the Kul’Tiras Navy was not an afterthought, it was the first step in Sylvanas’ plan.
It is an equal comparison because a Val’kyr’s purpose is to make more Undead, and she made more Undead. Val’kyr are replaceable, Sylvanas just hasn’t found another way to replace her personal ones yet, thanks to Genn stopping her. Sylvanas still has more Val’kyr left. Until they’re all gone, the loss of one doesn’t put a halt to her ability to raise more Undead.
Point remains, Horde lost a Val’kyr, and gained soldiers before that, counterbalancing the loss. Case in point, the Dark Warden that had to be fought during the Baine rescue scenario.
The Alliance has not gained new Night Elves yet to replace those that were lost. So over all, Alliance lost more than the Horde in this comparison.
I’m not a Blizzard writer. They’re the ones that decided that it would take twelve to one of the Horde’s forces against the Night Elves to be able to stand up against them when supported by Malfurion and Tyrande. And with the Night Warrior enhancement, the writers decided the Night Elves are even stronger than that now after the burning of Teldrassil. Welcome to Blizzard writing.
Once again, I’m not a Blizzard writer. The Blizzard writers are the ones that decided to have both Nathanos and Mathias Shaw say that the Horde was losing on all fronts and the Alliance had victory in their grasp. You asked how that’s possible, I came up with one speculative reason. Blizzard decided not to explain how at all, they simply stated it as facts in their story. Bring it up with them, not me.
We’ve already covered that both navies were lost. And we’re not talking about who can or cannot have a gripe about losses. We’re talking just about how much each side has lost, since you claimed the Horde lost more. You can have a gripe about Rastakhan’s death all the same as I could have a gripe had Malfurion been killed. But that would not change that Rastakhan was a singular person compared to all the people that died on Teldrassil.
Are we really sure we kill them and don’t just take them to raise them and make them fight other cageable creatures for our benefit and entertainment with love?
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Can I just interject and gripe for a moment about why Sylvanas needed the Prime Val’kyr when the First Val’kyr Helya had a freaking army of other Val’kyr.
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I mean can’t sylvanas just go to northrend abd post help wanted flyers for them can’t be to hard to mske thrm break away.
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Yeah. Worked for the San’layn, at least.
Is there any lore somewhere about the prime val’kry
The writers constantly contradict and retcon. No, they’re not, though I do like how you make a grab for literally anything that attempts to prove your point no matter how foolish it is. You’re actually making grabs for Blizz writing being legitimate. Think about that.
Saying it doesn’t apply =/= covering how it doesn’t apply.
Trying to say it’s a planet as an absurdist claim =/= proving that the literal definition doesn’t apply to it. I’ve been the one linking the definition to you, what, three times now? You really should understand what words mean.
I stated this before you said it. Maybe you should learn to read before you reiterate something. Second, the point was that your attempt to make something appear absurd only makes you look absurd, because the comparisons are completely unrelated.
You were the one who brought up genocide being related to settlement size count.
She can still win.
It wasn’t necessary, but she’d take it. Passing up a free opportunity is dumb.
Except Undead are replaceable and Val’kyr are not. You’re trying to say Undead are equally as valuable as Val’kyr and they’re not.
In the current situation, no they are 100% not.
Losing one means we’re that much closer to losing them permanently. Second, yes, one Val’kyr does make a difference. If Sylvanas wants to make more Rangers - like she did with Nathanos - it takes power away from the Val’kyr doing the ritual, so we can only make so many of those as well.
Soldiers are not worth remotely as much as a Val’kyr.
Yet you write like one.
At the end of the Rhast/Jaina raid.
Not at the end of UC.
Except we are because the basis of this whole thread spun out of control because you Night Elf players don’t seem to think that the Horde lost as much as you - incorrect.
So you’d rather have all those people in Tel rather than Malf?
This is known as the trolley problem and philosophers have been debating it in various formats for a very, very long time. I think any solution given either way is going to be totally subjective and not very helpful for discussion >.>
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Both sides can whine about their losses and both sides will think they lost more because both sides want to be the victim
He is showing the absurdity because how words are used is a pretty important aspect of language. Many things can technically fit many definitions. Azeroth still technically fits your definition of a city. Much like Teldrassil can technically fit some definitions of a city. But it would be better to use the term planet. And that a better descriptor for Teldrassil would probably be region or province. In the same way someone could technically call the state of California a city on your definition. Or if someone asked, ‘can you hand me a knife’ and they handed them a sword. ‘Well, technically a knife is just a cutting instrument consisting of a sharp blade fastened to a handle.’ All this is a basic part of communication.
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You do realize we’re on the Story Forum to discuss lore as it is, right? Lore is lore and canon is canon, whether it makes sense or not.
It would not be covering if I simply said it would not apply. It was covering, because I did more than simply say it, and explained how that definition doesn’t fit. You’re just simply avoiding acknowledging it. Here’s my advice again: The little arrow in the right corner of the quotation lets you go back up through the discussion. Look for the part where I explain how Shadowglen, Dolanaar, and Rut’theran Village are distinctive towns of their own and not part of a Teldrassil “city.” You can link the definition as many times as you want. You’ll still be wrong no matter how many times you link it.
Pointing out something is absurd only makes you look absurd if you can’t actually explain why that it is absurd. And I have well covered your absurdities time and time again.
Case in point, you’re absurd in calling Teldrassil a city because it is an inhabited place of greater size, population, or importance than a town or a village, when a planet is also an inhabited place of greater size, population, or importance than a town or a village. Don’t misuse definitions by cherrypicking the vaguest ones you can find that render the very definition meaningless. Your misuse of the definition does not define Teldrassil as a city, especially specifically once again because there were distinct cities and towns and villages on Teldrassil.
Seems she thought it was necessary:
- Champion, the Dark Lady summons you. The time has come to set her plan into motion. Our warships are ready to embark. The key to victory over the Alliance is within our grasp. Meet me in Zuldazar, aboard the Banshee's Wail. What we do next... we do for the Horde.
See, even Nathanos calls sailing to the Nazjatar trap being done in the Horde’s name.
I’m saying that Val’kyr replace Undead, and that’s what she did before she was killed, so it made up for the loss of her.
Lets hope it stays that way, since clearly Sylvanas has already tried to replace the Val’kyr once already.
And she has 300% more Val’kyr left than the one that got killed at Darkshore.
Sylvanas literally just made a whole bunch of new Dark Rangers from Night Elves. She can still make more Dark Rangers with her last three Val’kyr.
But once again, we’re not talking about the impact on future success. We’re just talking about losses as they currently stand.
Val’kyr are exactly worth the soldiers that the have recruited to the Horde. That Val’kyr was successful in her task. So, yes, I’m saying those soldiers gained are exactly worth as much as the Val’kyr that was not prevented from raising them in the first place.
I wish. I bet they get paid really well.
Which was my point, that the Horde were losing on all fronts after Dazar’alor even factoring in the absence of the forces that the Alliance lost at Undercity. Sylvanas managed the Horde just that poorly.
I have consistently shown that the Horde has not lost as much as the Night Elves.
And seeing as I’m the one that posted this thread, I’ll give myself an okay for where this thread has gone.
I’d rather have both.
You know me. I want everything.
Would you rather have kept Rastakhan and have lost Dazar’alor as a visitable area in the lore?
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I can’t speak for everyone, but I at least would.
Malfurion’s death would hurt, but he was fighting to save those people, so he’d have won in the end. And Malf chose to fight - the people who burned were specifically the civilians who chose -not- to take up arms and kept retreating instead.
If nothing else, I would find it a lot easier to write the night elves as forgiving the Horde if Malf had died instead of countless civilians, because he always called for peace. So peace with the Horde would be a fitting tribute to him and his personality, whereas the nameless innocents’ opinions are unknown.
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It’s relevant to the conversation because the people in question keep complaining about what’s lost and try to invalidate other people’s claims based on “Well that’s only one thing - even though it’s super important!”
No, it doesn’t. If it met the definition, then it would be.
You’re trying to call a structure built by a group of people - in which they all live in - not a city. That’s literally incorrect.
They literally could not.
No, it isn’t.
< Until it’s reconned.
You literally just did the thing you said you didn’t do.
No I am not. You’re saying you’re explaining here and you’re explaining how you explained without actually explaining the meat of it.
Note how I said they’re more like neighborhoods as opposed to actual villages or towns. Take your own advice.
< As you conveniently forget my own argument.
It doesn’t take a genius to figure out why Teld isn’t a planet.
It takes the literal definition to figure out that it’s quite literally a city.
City:
an inhabited place of greater size, population, or importance than a town or village
the major metropolitan center of a region;
< All of these apply.
Find me a definition of “city” that doesn’t.
the “vaguest” ones are the first results on the definitions. You are the one who’s cherry-picking by trying to find the vaguest definitions of literal planets and apply them to a tree.
But we didn’t win it in the same sense that you don’t seem to be satisfied that the Alliance won battles against the Horde for you as Night Elves. You’re disproving yourself here - that was the initial point of that. So you can be upset that something else - that’s part of your own faction no less - won a battle for you, but the Horde totally counts when we low-key use the Naga to lure you into a trap - and get a bunch of our soldiers on the boats killed in the process? Hypocrisy.
Except it didn’t because Val’kyr are infinitely more useful than Undead. You don’t see Sylvanas sacrificing a Val’kyr for one-hundred Forsaken, it’s always the other way around.
And how many did she have in Cata? Right.
Note how you seem to forget that it takes power away from the Val’kyr when they do this. Dark Mirror - you should read it some time.
And we lost something that was irreplaceable in the DS conflict. Wardens come and go all the time. So do NE’s.
No, they’re not; they’re worth what they still can raise. Their value within the context of the Forsaken is invaluable. What you’re saying is incorrect.
Not likely since I’m willing to bet they’re outsourced too.
So it’s Sylvanas’ poor management and not the fact that the Alliance scored a victory there then, hm? So you’re trying to play the victim again in that it wasn’t you doing the thing but Sylvanas’ screwup?
See, that’s my overall point: Nothing that the Horde loses will ever be good enough for you people because you want everything. You’ll stamp your feet - even when you’re wrong - because ?reasons?
You have cherry picked. Do you need the list again?
Rhast.
Fleet.
TG.
Lordaeron.
Val’kyr.
Brill.
Tel.
Darn (even though that’s Tel).
Nelves (which are replaceable).
Apparently conflicted zones don’t count, so DS is out as is Southshore.
Can’t count? You haven’t shown anything but denial.
Not how conversation directive works. “Mine mine mine!” doesn’t work as an excuse for trying to derail a conversation.
Obviously.
Rather lose Rhast and kept my fleet, but clearly that can’t happen.
Rhast. Already replaced with his more easily controlled daughter
Not sure why he is a loss
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Because Rhast was a more interesting/complex/established character than his daughter.
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I am more asking kill because at this point they are more inrested it seems in numbers than story loss given all night elves are replaceable
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So Teldrassil was stupidly large, dwarfing even mighty Nordrassil several times over. When Fandral dreamed, he seriously dreamed big. It was not just a city: It was an entire land, with a number of villages and its own self sustaining ecosystem.
As a comparison point the War of Thorns is about equal to Stormwind and Elwynn forest suddenly being incinerated after having all the settlements of westfall and duskwood pillaged and largely slaughtered. It was an enormous loss of life and culture, and treating it as anything less is a bit disingenuous.
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Naw to him it was just the size of a normal treehouse and had maybe 10 elves in it max
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But that would also be counting Darkshore, which this discussion (apparently) doesn’t include because somewhere along the lines we’re just comparing “non-contested” losses in territories that were total defeats.