I am sure this already happened, the march to dark shore was a blood bath for the horde army. Maybe it is just me but the entire horde army shouldn’t of struggled that much vs just NE. It is worse then Nigh warrior scripted event. Why even have a faction war when one race in the alliance can beat the entire opposing faction?
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That actually annoyed me, that Teldrassil was burned, and then Zul set Stormwind on fire, supposedly still full of Night Elf refugees.
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“Why even have a faction war” is probably a good question since its a hard type of story to both create a satisfying ending to while not ticking off players on either side.
As for the Night Elf vs Entire Horde question, besides the obvious answer of “Blizzard didn’t want the Night Elves to be immediately defeated so they made them a challenge”, I think its doubtful that the Horde committed even a majority of their military force to the attack. Why would the Tauren, Trolls, or Orcs send 100% of their fighting force when they knew there was tensions in Silithus? Why would Horde allies across the sea bother to ship or teleport over their entire armies? Meanwhile, since the Night Elves are fighting for their utter survival, they’re throwing absolutely every combatant and resource they have against the advancing forces.
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So what! Their death’s prior to Teldrassil it’s not justice burning it! That was the price for invading Ashenvale.
The Kaldorei have always been a powerhouse and they were in the forest to boot with Malfurion.
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The numbers game is always futile with Blizzard, but I don’t think the numbers the Horde lost during the march would match up to the greater number of Night Elves lost during the burning of Teldrassil.
But Kaileena brings up a more important point: The Horde soldiers died for invading Ashenvale and Darkshore in the first place, for participating in an unprovoked war. Their deaths would not make up for the burning of Teldrassil that happened after.
But I agree with you in the sentiment that they shouldn’t have gone with the faction war in this way. At least in that they shouldn’t have gone with the faction war at all.
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Everything Orcs* Tauren* stand for. They don’t represent the entire Horde, especially not since some orcs/tauren don’t abide by the same value system. I’m pretty tired of Orc/Tauren culture trying to dictate the other five races’s culture for the entirety of the Horde. “Honor” hasn’t worked anyway; it’s a warmongering philosophy.
WC > “Muh Honor”
:an inhabited place of greater size, population, or importance than a town or village.
< Applies to your entire tree. If it wasn’t inhabited with a greater population, then it wouldn’t be constantly referred to as a “genocide”. You can try to make a point that it was Darnassus that held most of the population, but most would be the key word there. Again, pay attention to definitions. It’s simple.
Nope. She didn’t win, the Naga did.
If you stop complaining about a zone you’re currently fighting over.
< We didn’t destroy your fleet, Naga did. You take that up with them.
Darn
Nelves
Fleet
Rhast
UC
Val’kyr
It sure doesn’t look that way when you cherry pick things, but fortunately you can’t get away with it.
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I have wondered about this. I know that Saurfang, Thrall, and Baine feel like the Horde isn’t currently meeting its ideals, but hasn’t it often been said that the core identity of the Horde is something like “A group of outcasts that do what has to be done to carve out a place in a hostile world”? If that’s the Horde code, then Sylvanas’ plan of taking out the Night Elves so that the Horde can secure azerite to protect themselves against the Alliance is aligned with their values. The main argument anti-Sylvanas rebels could make then is that inviting a full out Alliance attack is a dumb move that endangers the Horde races and isn’t worth protecting azerite supplies.
It would be, if the game ever bothered to make it look like the alliance wanted to be hostile toward the entire world. Even now, in BFA, it feels like the game’s failing to sell the alliance as anything more than only fighting back because the horde keeps starting stuff. Even when they should justifiably want to exterminate the horde, parts of them are STILL hoping for peaceful (or at least less violent) options.
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Sylvanas put Saurfang in charge of the War of the Thorns because she knew the entire Horde did not trust her to have honor.
So the planet of Azeroth counts as a city then, does it?
This definition doesn’t apply to Teldrassil because it has a distinct city and towns upon it. As towns and villages are defined distinctly in that definition, it identifies Shadowglen, Dolanaar, and Rut’theran Village as their own places of importance, thus not part of a Teldrassil “city,” and as such that definition does not apply to Teldrassil.
It was genocide because it was bigger than a city. Teldrassil could be seen a state or province. Not a city.
She did win. You just admitted she used them. Can’t backtrack out of that one.
Cherry picking is what you’re trying to do, and you’re not good enough to get away with it.
The loss of the Val’kyr was preceded with gaining Undead Night Elves. Those Undead Night Elves were more than just lost to death, they were lost in that they literally joined the Horde. That’s actually defection.
Also, considerable cherry picking that you think Rastakhan’s life is the equivalent of all the lives lost on Teldrassil. That’s literally the Alliance losing more than the Horde by definition.
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Well, I think that’s because if the core Horde identity is “Do whatever you have to do to protect your own people” the Alliance identity is “Uphold your moral values at all costs”. So if that means forgiving people that have wronged you or even putting your own people in danger from future attack, the Alliance is inclined to do it.
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Basically this 100%.
Correct. Honor, however, in retrospect, is irrelevant.
Planet: any of the large bodies that revolve around the sun in the solar system.
Seems Azeroth abides by that definition and not the former.
Cities have districts/neighborhoods.
But it does though.
Genocide: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
< That definition has nothing to do with size. Furthermore, we have modern cities that are much more massive than Teldrassil. Should we be calling them zones instead then?
If I convince you to beat up your friend, you beat him up and won the fight. If I take his wallet afterwards while he’s out cold, that’s merely your victory to my benefit, it doesn’t mean I beat him - because I didn’t, you did.
We still lost a Val’kyr. Risen Night Elves are replaceable. A Val’kyr is not. You trying to act like that isn’t a loss is cherry picking.
Is that why we nearly lost the war due to his death and his fleet’s destruction? Teldrassil wasn’t nearly as impactful of a loss because you still had a fighting chance afterward.
Garrosh was trying to protect his people? ![:thinking:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/thinking.png?v=6" ":thinking:")
Can’t get more Horde than my old boy Garrosh.
He probably thought he was doing right by his “True Horde”.
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I bet you it will be relevant again when the Horde rebels win. Again.
If you believe Teldrassil is a city, you are wrong. Honestly, though, I don’t believe you believe it is.
Why are you arguing against yourself again?
I called Teldrassil a state or province, not a zone. A zone is just a gameplay term as far as I can tell, not a lore term.
But it did mean that they lost their wallet to you. Hence, the Kul’Tiras Navy counts as something lost to you.
I didn’t say you didn’t lose a Val’kyr. You did. And you’ll probably lose more along with Sylvanas. Delaryn and Sira count as a loss as described still. People are not replaceable, or Rastakhan wouldn’t count as a loss because he was replaced by Talanji.
The Horde were losing on all fronts, not just Zandalar. But the impact on a chance for future victory is irrelevant to how many lives being lost. Rastakhan’s was just one. Teldrassil was countless.
Agreed. I really hate seeing how many players think that the kaldorei vengeance should be to become exactly the monsters who destroyed Teldrassil. It sickens me. I’m 100% good with killing Horde soldiers, but randomly murdering innocent Tauren just going about their business in Mulgore?
Just…why? How is that justice? It isn’t even vengeance. The actual people responsible for the crime may not even know any of the random innocent civilians who’d be slaughtered in some of the notions of revenge floated around. It wouldn’t hurt them, it’d just give them more reason to want to kill us and it’d turn us into monsters.
Killing those attacking us, yes. I’d love to see the kaldorei get the upper hand in Darkshore and Ashenvale, push the Horde completely out, terrorize and destroy the occupying forces so that they never think of coming back here.
But killing civilians in some warped “well they did it to us” “turnabout is fair play” where the people hurt aren’t even the people who hurt us? I’ll take a hard pass on that. Absolutely no. No, never, no. I play Alliance because I do not want to do that ever.
In my WoW fantasy world, I’d like to see Tyrande show the entire Horde a vision of Teldrassil as it burned, and let that vision morph into a vision of their own homes and loved ones and children burning, let them feel the horror that the kaldorei felt, let them feel the senselessness of the slaughter, let them smell the burning flesh and hear the screams as their own people die. And let her show them that we could do that. We can do that.
And then let her show them mercy, because we are not the monster their warchief is.
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No it isn’t. The Horde leadership is guilty. The commanding officers forcing "Tauren Conscript"s to fight are guilty. But the civilians just trying to live their lives off in the Barrens or wherever, they’re no more guilty than the innocents on Teldrassil were. Becoming the monster who attacked is isn’t revenge, it just creates another monster.
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How is it monstrous to kill Orcs or the Horde? This is a confusing statement.
Is it monstrous to kill Naga? Demons? Kobolds? Elementals?
Maybe if we nuke orgrimmar they will learn that maybe, just maybe, actions have consequences.
I mean we killed Garrosh last time and yet… you got Teldrassil.
So what makes you think deploying the same strategy as before would yield a different result?
If it makes you feel better we won’t deliberately trap them to stop them from leaving like the Sylvanas and Saurfang did.
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In a real world setting? Yeah, it’d be wrong to slaughter civilians of sentient species/races, partly because in the real world there are no sentient species/races who are all, to a one, evil. In the game, naga are all evil, but not all Horde are evil – see the Cenarion Circle and the Earthen Ring just for two examples.
In the end, though, I’m just never going to think that mass murdering civilians is okay, and I’m good with that. I don’t want to ever think mass murdering civilians is okay. You’re free to disagree.
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Think of it this way.
Tyrande comes in with her forces, slaughters her way to Grommash Hold and burns that to the ground.
Unlike the Horde her objective is not to kill all Horde, if any stand in her way well its their fault but the ruins of Grommas Hold (And probably half the city) would be a message to any Horde daring to poke their head of their stinking caves will be met with the same fate.
You catch my meaning?
Honestly, Azeroth is kinda monstrous when it comes to how they separate races that are considered morally significant (like Humans, Elves, Orcs, Tauren) and “lesser” races that are considered less important (Murlocs, Quilboar, Gnolls, Kobolds). It would be messed up to get a quest that said “Hey, the Blood Elves in the next village over are getting kinda numerous and uppity. Can you go murder ten of them? I’ll give you this belt!” but we do that all the time for some races.
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