You mean you?
You compared Lordaeron to Teld.
Lordearon is one city.
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I haven’t played the Horde side of this story, so I do have one question. Are the Forsaken actually upset about losing the Undercity and their territory? The Night Elves are devastated about what happened to them. Tyrande is enraged. But every time we see Sylvanas and Nathanos they don’t seem too broken up by the way things went.
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Both are equally terrible currently.
And she didn’t wage war that way; she burned down the tree and forsook “muh honor”.
We lost our city there. We don’t have a stake in Silverpine anymore. It’s why you hear a bunch of crying Worgen - because how can Gilneas be contested if we don’t have it?
Doesn’t matter. You haven’t lost it yet.
I’m sorry you don’t seem to understand that your one city doesn’t count for four.
Also Southshore.
Contradicting yourself in a single statement is pretty hard to pull off. Congratulations.
You don’t see Horde flags flying around in Naz, do you?
Using someone more powerful than you doesn’t = your victory.
Imagine Sylvanas going up to Azshara and saying, “Yeah, I won because of the stuff you did - even though we’re 100% not on the same side and actively want to destroy one another.”
It makes no sense.
Teldrassil is a city.
Lordaeron is a city.
Your tree is your city.
What part of that is hard to understand?
Does UC count as 4 cities then because of the quarters present within it?
No
Darnassus is a city.
Yes
No. Its a zone.
Its not hard at all. I don’t understand why you are having a tough time getting it.
No but UC and Brill count as two.
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Practically no story effort has been expended on this, no, and that is perfectly intentional since the mirrored destruction of faction starting zones was designed to do two things:
(1) be mechanically symmetrical (you lose your off-continent obsolete capital hub, and YOU lose your off-continent obsolete capital hub).
(2) further both faction stories in accordance with their predetermined RP-fantasies; which for the Alliance means their enemies being the worst people ever who have committed the biggest and least-forgivable sins possible against them and for the Horde means being used/deceived/turned malevolent as a prelude towards inevitably beating themselves up in partial atonement.
Teldrassil being written and continually referred to as an enormous and devastatingly harmful thing assists both those stories; Undercity receiving similar treatment would not.
So it wasn’t, and it isn’t.
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Think about it like this. Before Sylvanas tricks the Alliance, the Alliance has a much bigger navy than the Horde. The Horde is threatened by this navy. After she tricks the Alliance, the Alliance navy is much smaller. The Horde is no longer as threatened by the Alliance navy. Because of a plot created by Sylvanas and carried out by Nathanos, the Alliance’s situation was damaged and the Horde’s situation was improved.
This was a strategic victory. Sure, she had the naga do the work for her, but why does that matter? If a military commander can set it up so that one of their enemies attacks one of their other enemies that’s a net win for them!
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That was what I was suspecting and it certainly stinks for Forsaken players. They lost their capital and a lot of their land and no one cares…not even their leaders.
To be fair though, I guess the situations still aren’t very symmetrical. Sylvanas destroyed Teldrassil and the Horde (primarily the Forsaken) are actively interested in occupying Night Elf territory. Sylvanas destroyed the Undercity rather than have it be occupied and the Alliance has shown very little interest in occupying Forsaken territory.
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I don’t get why some players think destroying org is equal. Darnassaus was the most under used city in the game besides like silvermoon and the exodar. Org is the most populous. Second the horde lost UC so both factions lost a major city. (More people used UC than Darn).
Also, The nelves are a dwindling race that just lost a huge portion of their people. They couldn’t mount an offensive against org by themselves. Just because something bad happened to you does not mean you suddenly have the power to go to town on the enemy
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I think Orgrimmar comes up a lot because some Alliance players would like to punish the Horde in a way that really hurts them. Yeah, the Forsaken lost the Undercity but they didn’t lose a large portion of their population to near genocide and the city was destroyed by their own leader anyway. So the loss of the Undercity doesn’t have the emotional weight that losing Teldrassil did.
That being said, I understand the knee jerk idea of taking out Orgrimmar but I don’t think its a good idea. It doesn’t seem fair for Horde players to lose their faction center. I would like more Night Elf revenge to go down, but not that.
As for racial numbers, WOW is really inconsistent on that point so I think we should just assume that every race and every nation has exactly the number of people that the plot demands that they have. Because at this point I think every race is a dwindling race that has survived a half dozen wars and near planet ending disasters (or actual planet ending disasters for Orcs and Draenei).
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I agree with you. Especially on the plot and numbers. Destroying orgrimmar from a gameplay perspective makes no sense like you’re saying. Losing org would be akin to the alliance losing the entirety of stormwind.
I’m sure there are other suitable ways to add weight to the story and show the night elves getting a win in a rational way for gameplay. Darnassus does NOT equal Orgrimmar.
Gameplay wise (not lore or how it went down) the Horde lost a more central city/hub than the alliance did. The undercity was much more useful. In fact it’s where you bought heirlooms too.
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It does still seem kinda weird how little the game seems to value the loss of the Undercity. It was basically written off as a footnote just so that the loss of Teldrassil could be balanced…which doesn’t feel like balance to Night Elf players but still leaves Forsaken players without their original capital.
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She indeed lied to the Horde. She has not told the Horde what her cause is now. But the rest of the Horde is still after peace.
No you didn’t. The city there is the Sepulcher, which wasn’t lost.
Does matter, as it’s still contested in game and has not been shown in game to be uncontested again.
Are you talking to yourself again? Because you are correct, Undercity does not count for the four lost on Teldrassil. It is not equivalent. The Alliance lost more.
You have indeed impressed me on your ability to do this every time you bring up a definition.
I saw Nathanos holding a dagger that belong to Nathanos, and the Horde saw Nathanos declaring the trap a Horde victory.
Teldrassil is not a city. Darnassus was a city.
You made me like a post by Hetaera. Are you happy with yourself now?
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You know, as we’ve discussed this issue its got me thinking. We know that an entire Night Elf zone was destroyed and at least one other zone was occupied (at least for awhile). Much of a Forsaken zone was destroyed, but story wise is the Alliance even doing anything with the other Forsaken areas? I know there was this idea that Kalimdor is turning red and the Eastern Kingdoms turning blue, but is that even really true? Were the Forsaken kicked out of their entire territory?
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Because I speak the truth. And look who’s reading who’s posts.
Actually just a small portion of it… like maybe 1/5th? If you travel out of the immediate areas the Forsaken Guards still patrol and stand around like nothing has happened.
Mission tables seem to make some hints about that but they get constantly retconned (see darkshore). Mission tables seem to operate in their own pocket dimension.
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My mistake then. I haven’t been back to that zone since the start of the expansion.
I noticed that. Apparently there is a war raging in the Barrens too, right? Its just happening off screen I guess.
Unless I missed something, we have no answer. The entirety of the forsaken amount to Nathanos and Sylvannas. There aren’t any other forsaken NPCs with a speaking or non-speaking role in BfA, save Zelling, whose story you likely already know and likewise know why he has nothing to say either way.
Which leads me to a whole different argument, but not one for this thread. Basically, there’s no one saying anything about Lordaeron because Sylvannas and Nathanos quickly forgot all about it, and no other forsaken has a voice.
'Cept Voss, who is suddenly Team Forsaken now? After denying any affiliation from Cata to Legion? Uhg. Another whole other argument also not for here. But she also has nothing to say on the matter.
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[quote=“Hetaera-sargeras, post:265, topic:220413”]
No
Darnassus is a city.
If you say so. You grew an entire tree and held up shop in there.
Again, #doubt.
Me repeating myself because you don’t understand isn’t a problem with my comprehension.
Okay, then:
Brill.
Southshore.
UC.
Silverpine.
Rhast.
Fleet.
Val’kyr.
(Tarren Mill? Don’t remember.)
Darn (Tel).
DS.
Tel.
NElves.
Ashen.
?
Sylvanas using another player in the game to her advantage =/= her victory.
If you and I are playing Monopoly and you pawn me a Get Out of Jail Free card because you want me to land on the aisle ahead of me - which isn’t owned by you - so I have to pay out and lose the game, it’s not you who beat me, it’s the other player.
Because that means it’s the Naga’s victory and not the Horde’s. We benefit from there victory, but it’s not our victory. If the Legion came back and wiped out the Horde, would the Night Elves have their revenge against the Orcs? No.
Her cause as far as we’re concerned is to destroy/dismantle the Alliance, she hasn’t lied about that. What she’s doing beyond that isn’t our business (apparently). It’s not a lie if she’s doing other things beyond what she’s said; it would be a lie if she wasn’t doing the things she said - which she isn’t.
Check the Wiki on Silverpine under BFA. We did, indeed, lose posts there.
Check BFA. We’ve got a few losses there that - guess what - we didn’t have before.
But it doesn’t because the grievances were with what is lost, not with what is contested.
You lost the city you grew out of the ground. It was a structure you’d built from the ground up.
City: an incorporated municipal center.
2. an inhabited place of greater size, population, or importance than a town or village
Darn falls under these terms.
See giant list that disproves this.
Your denial/ “I’m rubber you’re glue” impresses further.
Unfortunately a setup by the Naga isn’t, again, a Horde victory; it’s a Naga victory. Opportunists =/= winners.
Check the definition of “city” if my copy/paste doesn’t do it for you.
I didn’t make you do anything; you make bad decisions all by yourself, Night Elf.
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I looked around a bit and did find one thing. The Forsaken Refugees in Orgrimmar have a few quotes about the situation (from Wowpedia):
-Surely they don’t plan to keep us here indefinitely.
-I never realized how harsh the sun can be on one’s remaining skin.
-Look! There goes the hero who helped us escape.
-The Alliance dares to think WE are monsters?
-Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken!
-The Alliance holds no claim upon our lands!
-This city is far too open for my tastes. I need dark places like this to complete my work.
-We’ve lost everything!
They make it sound like they lost about all their lands, not just the Undercity.
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The entire zone of Teldrassil is in fact one huge tree, grown on an island off the coast of Kalimdor. As such, there are no ore deposits here and the night elves are not known as crafty blacksmiths or miners. However, because the tree is so full of life, herbs are numerous.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Teldrassil
Teldrassil is the starter zone for the night elves. Players learn how times have changed since Malfurion Stormrage has returned to Darnassus and how Fandrel Staghelm was corrupted.
It is a lush spiritual zone, set high on an island that is also a great tree. It is home to the elven capital of Darnassus.
Starting Zone
Teldrassil
The loss of the first World Tree, Nordrassil, during the Third War ushered in a new era in night elven history—one in which this venerable race would no longer be immune to aging, disease, and frailty. As the night elves struggled to cope with their fate, Fandral Staghelm and a group of like-minded druids conspired to create a new World Tree that would restore the night elves’ cherished immortality. Through these druids’ efforts, Teldrassil was planted off the coast of northern Kalimdor, and the bulk of night elven society took up residence atop the new World Tree’s mighty boughs.
Home City
Darnassus
Atop the massive boughs of the second World Tree, Teldrassil, lies the wondrous city of Darnassus. The elegant bridges, beautiful groves, and leaf-covered pathways that dot the city’s landscape are testaments to the night elves’ reverence for nature. One of Darnassus’s most notable structures is the stunning Temple of the Moon, the center of worship for High Priestess Tyrande Whisperwind and her Sisters of Elune.
It seems its not just me saying so.
No, your comprehension is another issue altogether.
Btw your list is completely wrong if you cannot separate Teldrassil and Darnassus.
Btw why are you counting Southshore lmao? You blew it up.
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