So are Abominations, Elves, Gnomes, and probably any other biological race. Because Forsaken isn’t a race.
Yeah, and a human looking a little bit rotted doesnt mean they arent still a human.
You can manipulate and influence their grief and fear of death, because again, she is not asking until after they’ve been raised.
Because some of their organs do not work. That is it. The organs dont work anymore, that doesnt mean they do not have them.
NONE of those Forsaken are 3,000 years old, and many people from Lordaeron who escaped did just as much for the kingdom, its a massive preumption to assume all living Lordaeronians are like Scarlet Crusaders, and is more racially charged against humans. Horde racism… Though I guess Forsaken MUST be a different race, or Orcs would not only be working with Humans, but the ones who funded the internment camps.
Yes, but it is confirmed that when you die in battle, you return in a crazed state. The same state Sylvannas uses to turn freshly reanimated people on their family, and then asks if they’d like to be undead and serve Forsaken. Using their bodies and souls, and only asking after.
Night Elves are different and have Wisps and protection given by the Night Warrior. The Battle rage is absolutely canon for other races, but they also physically couldnt reanimate non humans back in the day without the Lich Kings help, so it never extended to other races by that virture, and couldnt be tested on other races.
Except it absolutely was, they were pushing into Ashenvale. They were at it’s borders moving inward. Grom also knew about the Demonic situation, and in wc3 openly said he knew what he was selling the Orcs. Also, that he was basically repeating the actions of the Horde in Warcraft I and II. If the Night Elves had opened up diplomatically, Grom would have shrugged them off. He was given a command, and was so pissed off about said commands that he just wanted a fight.
He was pissed off, feeling the demonic corruption still in his veins, and was bloodthirsty even without it. He already thought it was an insult to the Warsong to put them on tree chopping duty. He would not just stop because of Nelves. At most, he might avoid chopping down Ancients. (Which, if you notice in the campaign, he does. He just doesnt refer to them as Ancients because they were retroactively added into Draenor lore years later)
Or as we talked about last time, the factions join together and all players can play together.
Character’s conclusion that you are holding as evidence to prove that character’s conclusion. Still faulty reasoning.
Hey, and the Horde and Alliance always end up putting arms down and working together again. Look at that. Historically backed as well.
Sounds good to me. Who wouldn’t want that?
Thanks for proving yourself wrong again. Neither were in favor of joining the Alliance. And both are still working towards the cause of peace for the Horde.
This is a trend for you, huh?
Nope. Neither in the story itself, where the Forsaken finished evacuating while the Night Elves did not get the chance, nor where the Forsaken in game are not upset about the Undercity to the extent that Night Elves are about Teldrassil, Darkshore, and Ashenvale.
Hell, the Alliance didn’t even march through Hillsbrad and Silverpine, so the Horde didn’t even lose as much that way, either.
If anything, what Forsaken fans have to be upset about is that the story doesn’t show anyone really caring about Lordaeron being lost to the extent the Night Elves are upset.
This was my point. For whatever history Nathanos has, it’s all for personal grudges or obsession with Sylvanas. They would need to put equal amount of work to show he cares about his people at all. Marshal M. Valentine says hi.
Race: the fact or condition of belonging to a racial division or group; the qualities or characteristics associated with this.
2. a group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group.
3. a group or set of people or things with a common feature or features.
Forsaken match these definitions. Aboms don’t. Forsaken are literally a race. English must be hard for you.
The fact that they don’t have to eat, sleep, or do any of the other necessary things humans need to do, coupled with the fact that they are outwardly biologically different, means they are not human.
And? Asking a dead body doesn’t get an answer.
They don’t have to eat.
They don’t have to sleep.
They have access to different abilities than humans do, reflected in their racials.
They don’t need organs to function. Massive biological difference. Again, different biology constitutes being a different species/race.
So if they did just as much - and abandoned the people who still lived there - and forsook their old kingdom - then no, they didn’t do just as much. You don’t get to cry about how you don’t have your kingdom after you abandoned it.
“Wah! We want our kingdom back even though we abandoned it and you have more - if not just as much - claim to it as we do! And we don’t want to play nice with you either, we want it all!”
Nope. You don’t get to run away, then come back and try to reclaim something that other people have been forced to reclaim simply because you outcasted them.
<
Who’s racist again?
< She still asks. I don’t see her bounding up every single Forsaken in chains. Furthermore, as we see in BtS, plenty of undead - most of them - like her. You act like she’s just some Hitler 2.0 when she is literally the one responsible for freeing them from the Scourge. If you’re talking about Alliance corpses - Horde doesn’t care, even Lor’themar in SoO didn’t give a damn about raised Alliance fighting for the Horde. It’s almost like sympathy is nonexistent when you’re talking about an enemy like the Alliance.
< And yet that difference doesn’t seem to make one.
And Blizzard can take a service off their store? Fat chance.
< And historically.
< And other characters (Saurfang even admits it to himself).
What’s your supporting evidence?
Oh right, there isn’t any to suggest peace between the Alliance and Horde.
And yet none of it lasted even five years, so there goes the whole “lasting peace” thing.
People who don’t want everything handed to them.
< Baine freed by Saurfang and Thrall, both of which aren’t the people’s/WC’s cause and are in fact an Alliance cause. You should be able to figure that out because, ya know, Jaina/Shaw show up.
< Doing harm to Horde plans = Alliance cause. What did Baine do when he freed Derek? What did Saurfang do when he started to rebel? Right, same causes the Alliance is for. Anduin and Shaw literally orchestrated Saurfang’s escape and yet you try to claim they didn’t defect. Sad.
< You don’t have to join another country to be in favor of it.
< Seems to forget you just killed Rhastakan and destroyed the entire Zuld navy (conveniently).
So:
We lost UC.
We lost Rhast.
We lost our navy.
The only shared history is being Forsaken, they arent even all Lordaeronian or Human. They even have some Leper Gnomes. And no, Aboms are literally considered a part of the Forsaken.
They’re only physical similarities are undeath, they are otherwise still their races. People with the same disease arent all their own species or race.
They borderline worship her, its not a healthy relationship. She doesnt view them as people. She openly views them all as tools. They love her because she isn’t the one who killed and bound them in death, and because their culture beats loving her into you, when she herself has done all she can to make them stop thinking of their old lives. It doesn’t matter that she asks, when she is manipulating you so the only option is “Go to Hell for all eternity, or serve me unconditionally” AFTER SHE HAS RAISED THEM. That, and virtually all Forsaken she has gained post-Cata were enemies in life. It’s drinking the cult juice.
That is NOT why the Forsaken claimed Lordaeron. She killed Garithos, and as much as he deserved it, that sent all the Lordaeronians scattering without an actual central leader. He fought for the kingdom as well, and by the laws of that land had more claim to it than Sylvannas herself. They didn’t forsake the people who lived there: if they didnt leave, they’d die. The scourge was still a big issue for years. The Silver Hand was still actively fighting for their home. Why should living humans who fought for their home not be welcomed by virtue of still being alive? Because a dead Quel’thalassian Citizen with no claim to the human throne says so?
The difference is Night Elves still have a part of their soul that comes out of their body and back into the world naturally. They wont go to hell, they arent disoriented from war, their passing on into the afterlife and what happens to their spirit is entirely different than what a Human experiences. It literally does not matter that the outcome is that there are now Forsaken Night Elves, it was never the point and i’d appreciate it if you actually stopped and realized that before rehasing the same argument over and over and over. It is what happens in giving them the choice.
And yet he showed the ability to work alongside the goblins. Didn’t seem to take issue with the Tauren or Trolls. And ultimately did listen to Thrall to go get lumber. Hardly a sure thing. But depending on how the Night Elves approached it, I can easily see it working out better.
If anything, would probably make their service more viable, since it would solve a lot of gameplay issues, which the playerbase cares about first and foremost over the story.
Same could be said about any fighting. The Alliance and Horde always make up and join together again.
Explains why you were in support of Garrosh and Sylvanas. Seems you’re the type of person who wants to be on the side they know will lose.
You do realize both Sylvanas and Anduin both have the same cause for peace, right? Nothing you said there was factually Horde characters not being in favor of Horde country or of the Horde’s end goal. So you’re still wrong, and desperate to try to word play your way out of it.
Argh. I just can’t seem to leave this topic alone. So, one last attempt at clarification.
In that thread, I was actually trying to make the underlying appeal that we’re all players of the game and should all be on the same side, like Carmageddon said. And I still believe that. But we never got that far because … well, I’m tired and I don’t feel like breaking it all down, so I’ll just assume it was all my fault due to lack of clarity in argument. I take all the blame for the messy way the discussion went. The only thing I still deny is the accusation of selfishness. Because I honestly believe that my basic intentions were the opposite of selfish. But still, I obviously didn’t succeed in saying that in a way that made sense to anyone but me, so that’s my communication fail.
And now I really, seriously, am going to take a deep breath and step away for a while. Because if I’m not having fun and also am not managing to say what I mean, then there’s no point for me to be here. Maybe I’ll be back after I’ve had a break. If not, then I hope everyone gets what they want out of BfA.
And you act like undeath is some minor trait because
“healthy relationship” coming from a group of people who worship the moon.
See: Silverpine questline.
Not openly, no.
Actually they love her because she freed them from the Lich King’s grasp and led them to a new home in Lordaeron. Actually they love her because she formed a stable government for them and protected them against those who were - and still are - trying to kill them.
Not all Forsaken go to hell. Some are still tied to the light. It’s difficult, but that’s not the case.
< Forsaken aren’t just Sylvanas by herself. They are literally the people that built that city. Saying that they “deserve it” more than the people who literally died there for it is absolute nonsense. Let’s raise military veterans from the dead and then tell them they’re not welcome in their respective nations anymore, shall we?
“No claim to the throne” < most of her faction were residents in Lordaeron, residents the original government couldn’t protect. So an incompetent group of people have more claim to a land than those who can actually claim and protect it? No.
< Except they’re not immune to undeath, which ties your soul to your body still.
If they can be raised as Forsaken, and as your Warden turned Forsaken said, you very well can and do.
Except that it does because that means those people raised in such a way do go to hell. Warden in Warfront says something along the lines of, “Is this the darkness Sylvanas spoke of?” when you kill her.
You refuse to acknowledge literal definitions, so I invite you to take your own advice and stop being an ignorant hypocrite.
We’ve fought since the first three expansions, Vanilla, BC, and LK. That was longer than five years. Furthermore, ‘5 year war’ is not the point; the point is that the Alliance and Horde never have prolonged peace, which they don’t.
The only reason we “know they’ll lose” is because plot demands it. If you look at story, it’s written in a poor way to shoehorn it all into a place the writing staff want. It doesn’t matter which end makes sense - which would be the latter two winning anyway.
Sylvanas’ cause is not peace.
Except the fact that peace with victory is the current Horde’s true goal - the likes of which won’t happen with Saurfang/Baine’s method since they’re quite working for the blue boys and girls now, if not working with them. They’re working down a path where the horde will lose. Sylvanas isn’t. Ergo their causes are different.
I’m the desperate one yet you seem to think that Saurfang and Baine have the same aims as Sylvanas because “both end the war” while you completely disregard how that will happen.
Silverpine.
Still contested.
TLDR: Tel.
TLDR: Lordaeron.
You seem to think Teldrassil counts for 4.
It doesn’t.
Your bias is showing.
We lost the last remnant of our ship in there.
Azshara did it anyway. How is that a Horde victory?
They’ve always cared more about gameplay than story. Derive what you will about that from how much you think they care about gameplay.
They never have prolonged wars, either. They always end and the factions always end up working together again.
Yep. Like Sylvanas being made Warchief by something that possessed Vol’jin.
The cause discussed with Saurfang in A Good War:
“Their military might counts for nothing if their members stand alone. Then we strike peace with the individual nations and carve them away from the Alliance, piece by piece.”
“… That is why I need you to make the plan, High Overlord,” Sylvanas said. “The moment our strike begins, there will be no turning back. We can divide the Alliance only if the war to conquer Darnassus does not unite them against us. That only happens if the Horde wins an honorable victory, and I am not blind—the Horde does not trust me to wage war that way.”
Was not marched through and the Horde didn’t lose it.
Was not previously contested.
Deathknell and the Bulwark, etc., were not touched and still stand.
I’m sorry I didn’t think I had to spell that out for you.
I could only wish my bias could show as much as yours does.
But you’re still wrong on the list there.
Sylvanas is somehow working with Azshara, at least though the blade Nathanos was holding that lead them to the trap. Sylvanas is the Horde in your view, right?
Because it was Sylvanas’ plan. It is what she wanted. She told Nathanos to go to that spot specifically so that the Alliance would lose all those ships, getting rid of the Alliance naval supremacy. Sylvanas basically used Azshara for her own ends. Those couple Horde ships were apparently considered acceptable loses. Nathanos seemed to consider it a Horde victory after all. He was pleased as the ocean opened up and then headed off to do more Sylvanas scheme stuff.