The speed of response is what caught me off guard. Like, immediately.
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Really activates my almonds.
Yes. That doesn’t make the Nelves any less jerkish for leading with arrows instead of “hey, stop doing that,” though. Unlike the Stonespire, who tried diplomacy with the Dwarves who showed up uninvited to defile their sacred land. Nothing outweighs the diggy-diggy-hole Prime Directive, though.
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Alliance/Night Elf fans admitting that the Nigh Elves might have acted in an extreme way upon seeing their trees being cut down challenge: Difficulty impossible.
Especially when Malfurion later in the same freaking game reacts in a more reasonable manner to the exact same faction.
Note: This is not me justifying Grom drinking demonblood and going full “burn the whole forest down” but this drive to completely excuse the Night Elves’ part in escalating the situation is just absurd.
Even when the Alliance/Night Elves are wrong, they’re right.
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The Night Elves attacked first. In fact the Warsong clan had no idea the Night Elves even existed when they arrived in Ashenvale. If anything the Night Elves should be the ones that needed to open up a dialogue. Instead they saw the Warsong clan chop down a few trees and believed they were as bad, if not worse than the burning legion. Which ironically, made the Warsong clan unknowingly run back to the Legion for protection. Also saying the Warsong clan was planning to ‘strip mine’ all of Ashenvale is just plain wrong. Their mission was to build a settlement. Weird how the Orcs were able to do that without strip mining what trees Durotar had when they were building Orgrimmar.
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Yes, absolutely. That is what Grom should have done.
Remember your audience, Zul!!
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Excellent point.
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To start: I am not taking you out at the knees. I know you’re quoting other sources. I am debating the source’s validity, I’m not attacking you.
This is entirely stupid for them to state, and especially for them to believe, because the night elves were taking joy and condescension at the orcs’ arrival. The Night Elves considered them peons to be toyed with, tormented, and mocked. They did not consider them a threat.
The Night Elves do not ever interact with the Burning Legion in the same manner. They think the BL is a threat. They don’t toy with them, they attack them, try to route them, and try to kill them. Hell, Tyrande killed the Wardens to free Illidan just to have an ally against the Burning Legion!
To tl;dr:
Night Elf response to orcs: lol, peons, look how scared and weak they are
Night Elf response to the Burning Legion: oh goddess help us we will all die if we don’t kill them!! Pull out all of the big guns, hold nothing back sisters!! We live and die this day night for Elune!!
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It is mainly from WC3 itself when the Night Elves first attack you in ‘the spirits of ashenvale’
Huntress: You were right, sisters. These green-skinned brutes have no respect for life! Slay them in Elune’s name!
https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/The_Spirits_of_Ashenvale_(WC3_Orc)
And then in the following mission, ‘The Hunter of Shadows’, Cenarius refers to the Orcs as ‘demon spawned wretches’. Even comments about how he had “defeated their kind in ages past”.
Cenarius: I defeated your kind in ages past and I shall do so again!
Cenarius: Demon Spawned Wretches, you will all die!
https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/The_Hunter_of_Shadows_(WC3_Orc)
Both of these quotes happen before you get the mission to find the corrupted well.
It is from these that I made the comment about how the Night Elves saw the Orcs as being equal to or worse than the Burning Legion… because they basically say they are.
I am curious to know where you got your information from though.
Which is kinda funny as the Night Elves brought out the biggest gun they ever had (Cenarius) to try and defeat the Warsong Clan. After all, Archimonde intentionally delayed the formal invasion of Kalimdor until Cenarius was dealt with.
Tichondrius: Yes. Lord Archimonde demands that Cenarius be destroyed before we launch the invasion of Kalimdor.
https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/The_Blood_of_Mannoroth_(WC3_Orc)
Kinda goes against your headcanon there bud.
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https://youtu.be/Wna4BpDksdI?t=7
This link is important because it shows the first thing they do is pretend to be ghosts. They don’t even try to kill them, they just play spooksies with them. They’re laughing while they do it.
But it isn’t the first thing they do. They don’t even summon him. He notices they’ve cut the trees, and he comes himself.
Again:
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Yeah, they did that first but then quickly realized that the Orcs are an actual threat. Hence the first quote I provided.
Then after the Orcs defeated the local elves in that region, Cenarius himself came down. If the orcs were always this pathetic, weak little race from the Night Elves pov, why would the biggest gun the Night Elves have in their arsenal get personally involved in the conflict and not say Tyrande?
Again, Cenarius got involved before the Warsong Clan got corrupted by Mannaroths blood for the second time. It was Cenarius’ involvement that drove Grom and his clan to unknowingly shackle themselves to the Pit Lord even further. As I also provided, Cenarius viewed the Orcs as equivalent to the Legion.
If they thought they were as bad as the burning legion, or the burning legion’s forces themselves, why didn’t they unleash the big guns immediately as they do every time they fight the burning legion?
Again, fun laughy spooksies until they realize orcs can actually fight, and even then they don’t unleash the big guns. They just fight as an army unit does.
They do not summon Cenarius.
They do not summon Tyrande.
They do not summon Malfurion.
And they absolutely don’t free Illidan.
But they didn’t know they could fight until they actually engaged with them. Which was after they saw them as a threat. The structure and quotes within that mission itself says as such.
You are being your usual self Dreadmoore. Seeking to argue for the sake of argueing.
I edited this in, you may have missed it.
Dreadmoore, if you want to have a petty argument for no reason, go watch a certain monty python sketch
You have nothing to really dispute what I mentioned as I provided actual quotes from the game itself that basically says the same thing.
If you are that bored, do something else. The adults are talking.
You engaged my argument without actually disproving any of it.
Treng’s argument: Nelves didn’t engage with orcs like they do the burning legion.
Denona’s argument: yeah but they didn’t engage with orcs like they do the burning legion.
Because it changed almost immediately if you play the god damn mission.
Are you really that butthurt over our last ‘disagreement’ that you are trying to find something so minor to get angry over?
hmmm, strawmans, I love it. Completely ignoring the fact that the biggest gun the Night Elves had came to fight some ‘weak little orcs’.
Weird how you are actually arguing that the orcs are actually weak and pathetic here.
Honestly at this point I’m expecting the “I made you the soyjak and I’m the chad” meme.
Again: when the Nelves engage the burning legion, they immediately unleash the big guns. They did not summon Cenarius. Cenarius came of his own will, unsummoned, uncalled for. He saw the forest being deforested, and he came.
Nelves did not treat orcs like they engage with the burning legion. they used their army to fight them. Which is part of my very first post which discredited the idea that “ohhhh nelves thought they were the legion!!”
No, they didn’t. They engaged them as if they were an army. Every time nelves engaged the legion, they pulled out their big guns. Tyrande, as I previously stated and you’ve promptly ignored, killed Wardens precisely to free Illidan Stormrage in attempt to gain another ally against the burning legion.
tbh, that doesn’t actually disprove what I said. Given that the Night Elves and even Cenarius himself compared the Warsong Clan to the Legion. Even calling them “Demon Spawned wretches” and saying that they had “defeated their kind in ages past”. Why would Cenarius say the latter if he never interacted with Orcs before? (Remember, WC3 itself is before the WotA novels time travel plot) And why would he call them ‘demon spawned wretches’?
If Cenarius himself viewed the Orcs equal to or worse than the Legion, then that is how they viewed the Orcs. And that was before they got high on Mannaroth juice again.
Denona’s Argument: The Night Elves and Cenarius saw the Orcs as a threat equivalent to the Burning Legion, backed up by actual quotes
Dreadmoore’s Argument: The Night Elves laughed at the orcs when they were spying on them and that is how they will always view them.
But if you want to ignore facts and logic and instead depend your argument on feelings, go right ahead. Like I said, this is honestly pathetic coming from you. You are ignoring actual quotes from characters involved in this scenario because you have beef with me for some reason.
Cenarius sensed the demon corruption.
Nelves have happy fun spooksies time until the orcs proved to be competent fighters.
And it wasn’t until Cenarius came – uncalled for – that the night elves thought they were demonic.
and even then they didn’t summon Tyrande nor Malfurion.
That isn’t even mentioning Illidan.
They didn’t think the orcs were worth summoning their “”“mortal”“” (which is to say, non deified) champions. Nor their gods.
They did not engage with orcs like they do the burning legion.
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