To you, statement 1 and 3 are false, and you know that.
Regarding 2 - we thought we were turning a corner with him for a bit until he backslid. That’s when the hammer came down. I receive threats and harassment from him to this day over it.
With that said, we’re done. Your exchange with Ainhin (and I didn’t think I’d end up defending him) demonstrates that you will continue with this no matter how tenuous. I’m simply going to end this with an encouragement for you not to try and dredge up year-old incidents that were dispositioned in a manner that ignores their context.
I mean, I know you won’t, but you’re not getting further replies from me on it.
Idk if he even knew it happened or ever found out what happened to the Dwarves that went to southern Barrens since the Horde kills all of them in vanilla.
And if just being the leader makes you guilty then I guess the entire leadership of the Horde. Baine, Lorthemar, Thalyssra, and etc… are all guilty of Sylvanas’ crimes… and Garrosh’s
Actually maybe Thrall is responsible for the Forsaken actions at the Wrathgate too since he was their leader as they developed those weapons and place them on that hill to press that button.
Knowing Brann after questing with him for so long pretty sure he would be horrified about what happened to the Stonespires.
Some races getting treated as jokes, or evil, or good; basically races being used more like plot devices and not actual people is how we got BfA.
I’m not mixing main narrative with regional quest. Blizzard is. Blizzard wants us to feel bad about X when Y happens, but then also feel Z when Y happens. And Blizzard is inconsistent in which people and places and topics get main vs regional narratives.
I misread on Southshore/Theramore, but even that isn’t treated the same. Nevermind he fact that no matter what, Stonspire is oly known about if you play Horde ad gets retconned away in Cataclysm, that expansion ALSO see the Forsaken becoming ridiculously more prone to using the blight- which everyone on both factions is shown to be a very very bad thing. And receives a heck of a lot more attention. From both sides.
Only Baine is portrayed as making much ado about Theramore, but because Blizzard wants US, the players, to care, they use it as a moment to play up the fact that Garrosh is a bad guy. It’s not portrayed as something the Horde player is meant to just dismiss the same way Gallywix or Sylvanas might.
Blizzad does not write from the point of view of the characters. There’s dozens of characters- some doing what they think is right and thinking what others do is wrong. But Blizzard has never been shy about telling us when characters are right/wrong/good/evil, no matter what the character themselves think.
I agree with most of your points, but I think what actually happens with the Stonespire questline, now experiencing it myself as a non-child in BC Classic, is that the Cata questline is about actually destroying the base after the Dwarves kept persisting and coming back. In the original questline, we killed soldiers at their base and their dig teams and expedition leader there, but we blew up a plane, not the actual base. We don’t do that until the Cata follow up.
Come to think of it a lot of the perpetrators of Horde grievances (rightly or wrongly) are all dead now. Those Dwarves in Barrens, the guys who sacked Taurajo, the entire kingdom of Theramore, the people of Hillsbrad, the guys who attacked that Goblin ship, those humans in Durotar, etc
Who is there left for the Horde to get vengeance against? Aside from the major lore characters I can only think of Rogers maybe?
I mean guessing by how many people think Baine “I needed to be distracted for the WOT to go off without a hitch” Bloodhoof needs to be directly punished for Teldrassil… yes?
Maybe it’s because when the Alliance does something naughty to the Horde it’s a rarity that’s worth a parade down 5th avenue and a milestone event that people talk about for years to come whereas when the Horde does something naughty to the Alliance it’s Tuesday
So we have a careful record of bad things the Alliance did that Horde players want vengeance for whereas there isn’t really any point in Alliance players keeping careful records of bad things the Horde did because it’s so common.
I must repeat again that you literally brought it up and literally asked me to post these things and I was not engaging in this thread until you requested it.
Mereldar being Lordain’s sister, or adopting earlier cultural motifs of her tribe don’t mean that those motifs or the tribe had anything to do with the Light before the Troll Wars–they were incorporated into the new religious movement, very much like pre-Christian beliefs have been incorporated into regional variants of Christianity in Europe, Asia and the Americas–bringing it up is a red herring fallacy.
I disagree. There is a continuity of significance here–the kingdom of Arathor meets the criteria before the kingdom of Lordaeron does.
Another red herring fallacy? Jerusalem’s significance to Europe doesn’t relate to the idea of a homeland at all.
You seem to be grasping at conceptual straws now, so I don’t think there’s any merit to continuing this discussion.
Geez, that went from 0 to 50 fast. I thought that this was purely academic, because the real reason why the Kingdom of Lordaeron is the homeland of so many people in WoW is because that’s where they were born and where they had lived for countless generations.
Anything more than that and the idea of a “homeland” becomes ENITRELY conceptual. But no matter how you slice it, humanity’s homeland was and remains threatened by Horde colonialism, making Horde demands that humans “go back where they came from” patently absurd, because the Horde is stopping them from doing that as well.
My argument is more similar to people who criticized the later seasons of >>Insert any long running series here<< compared to the earlier seasons, because while the earlier seasons did a great job of playing around with genre tropes, the later ones started turning characters into caricatures of themselves, going with cliché plots/tropes, made good/bad guys dynamic ridiculously less complex and saw the narrative suffer for it.
With respect specifically to “evil races” like murlocs, I think it is. Like the Stockholm Syndrome observation, you have a point, it just isn’t one that the author was thinking about or intending to portray.
Regarding the strict text of your paragraph however, I can agree with that.
Well like I said it is what it is.
The events like Stonespire that get “forgotten” happen to Alliance too
For every Taurajo or Stonespire Alliance has something similar but thats because thats all the tragedy the Horde is allowed to have before the writers make them something really big and make it as emotional and horrible as possible to make drive it home.
These people are hacks, they can’t do two storylines having the same emotional impacts but they pretend it does anyway.
If it makes you feel any better at least the Horde player did not have made into a victim and forced to play through a scenario like Teldrassil or Theramore. They did those things to the Alliance to make their next batch of protagonists we follow and villains we need to kill.
They probably keep victimizing the Alliance because it is easier to sympathize with them as an audience than it is some monster race. And its easier to villainize a monster race than it is to a conventionally beautiful humanoid race.
No one will care if Troggs get killed by the millions. But Draenei or Night Elves? Easy tear jerkers. Easy.
If you want to a sad story then Alliance has to really do it… like flood Orgrimmar as you watch orc kids be swept away by the waves as players are unable to stop it and then have several patches about how sad it is while the Alliance leadership except one or two people don’t care.
And in the end of it all its better to just forgive and move on.
Thats the story blizzard is telling now, being a victim in the story isn’t fun either.
Unfortunately, the Cata revision gets rid of any mention of the Stonespire. It instead has Genn being generally upset about Turajo and Alliance in general- not anything the Dwarves specifically did.
It’s the simpsons effect. The writers who gave it it’s initial unique voice eventually move on to bigger and better things, and what you end up getting as replacements are less capable, and make the end product more generic
I still think that Cata/MoP was the low point of this franchise in terms of writing, actually. What we’ve gotten since has been an improvement, even if that is damning with faint praise.
When you see statements like the writers “not wanting to be tied to previous stories” and stuff like “We did BFA because we wanted a callback to WC2” it really doesn’t paint a picture that they particularly care about the themes that the Metzen era writers built up