The Horde: A Different Type of Heroism

One of my biggest criticisms towards the writers is that they don’t seem to understand what, exactly, the Horde is. The writing in both MoP and BfA has been panned in this regard, but it’s all symptomatic of a bigger problem. The faction itself often doesn’t feel like it has an identity of its own, instead taking on the identity of its current warchief. Under Thrall and Vol’Jin, this identity consisted of a nebulous, honour-bound nobility motif, without a lot of examples of what nobility actually meant to the Horde.

Under Garrosh and Sylvanas, the results were, arguably, even less satisfying.

Ultimately, the writers don’t seem willing to commit to the idea of the Horde as the evil faction, and I believe most Horde players don’t wish to play an evil faction. But without that tumultuous inner conflict, how do we define what the Horde is without making them a red Alliance?

In Star Trek, specifically the series taking place around the time of The Next Generation, the Federation and the Klingons had a dichotomy that I could see applying to the Alliance and the Horde. Unlike The Original Series, Klingons were rarely depicted as being villainous. Their cultural norms, including what they perceived as noble behaviour, was vastly different from the Federation, but the two factions often worked together against common threats, and despite the occasional conflict, they were staunch allies during events like the Dominion War.

The Klingons often demonstrated attitudes which their Federation counterparts considered barbaric. They emphasized honour, tradition, and rituals, whereas the Federation focused far more extensively on logic and tolerance. Where the Federation might put together a risky operation to save a single officer, the Klingons would expect their officer to die honourably in battle and recognize their sacrifice, rather than sending in more troops to save them. They believe in holding grudges, and settling disputes through show of strength. It was never villainous, per say, and the “good” Klingons were never shown to be malicious or cruel simply for their own twisted enjoyment. They were harsh, and strict, but also fair, and had a greater allowance for personal freedom and belief than might be allowed in the homogenized Federation.

I feel like the writers tried to implement some of these themes with the Horde, but more often than not, they come across as bloodthirsty and undisciplined. In Wrath of the Lich King, during a quest in Icecrown, a band of Horde warriors attacks a group of Alliance soldiers engaged with the Scourge. There’s no real reason for this: both sides are attempting to defeat the Lich King, and by attacking the Alliance, the Horde simply ensured both sides would be wiped out in that area. They were closer to Uruk Hai from Lord of the Rings in this instance: attacking for no other reason than because they can, because all they’re capable of doing is destroying things, because all they want to do is fight, regardless of whom or for what reason.

I think the Horde would be more interesting, and more satisfying, as an amalgam of other heroic methods. Why can’t the Forsaken utilize the most pragmatic, straightforward means to achieve their goals, without being evil? Tyrion Lannister from Game of Thrones was pragmatic, but the books never tried to make him out as an amoral villain. Orcs, Tauren, and Trolls can all showcase the same reverence for ritual and individuality seen in the Klingons without resorting to smashing everything in childish fits of rage.

And there’s plenty of examples of haughty, yet obviously superior elves acting in an ultimately altruistic fashion…just saying.

My point is, I think the Horde is more than capable of being a heroic entity in the Warcraft universe, without simply being transformed into a diluted version of the Alliance. They can play out the heroic tropes the Alliance isn’t capable of, and vice versa. I certainly don’t think they need to constantly demonstrate strife and internal conflict to carve out their own identity, and I definitely don’t think they need to be turned into villains every few expansions.

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Even back in the day when I was first playing WoW in college, the reason I thought the Blood Elves joining the Horde was so interesting is that the obvious story was for them to come in hoping to use the “primitive,” Horde, only to find that they actually liked the way they did things. Same thing with the Forsaken, who’s original cutscene described their Horde membership as a “alliance of convenience,” but I felt had to inevitably end up as an alliance more true and strong than they’d even known in the back-biting politicing of the old human kingdoms. If Orcs have a problem they don’t scheme and maneuver and bribe and cajole, they get out their knives and settle the dispute, and when they’re done either one side is dead or both sides have some respect for each other. I imagine that way of life would be damn liberating for races who had been on the wrong end of the pettiness of the “old,” races, wondering why Genn Greymane had built a wall rather than help them during a Zombie apocalypse, and where the armies of Ironforge and Stormwind were when their people were being slaughtered to the last child.

This isn’t to say that in turn the other Horde races couldn’t learn from the Blood Elves or Forsaken either. That was why the introduction of Orc Mages and their backstory being explicitly based on learning magecraft from the Forsaken was so cool to me.

Anyway, point is: Yes, Blizzard needs to relearn what makes the Horde heroic. They should get into their own game and play some quests in Silverpine Forest or the Southern Barrens to get a reminder about how the balance between ruthless and uncompromising yet honorable and disciplined is meant to work for this faction, those two zones really nail it.

And I really do want to see more of the evolution of the Horde as a cosmopolitan society, the melding of its “savage,” and “civilized,” sides (if one can forgive the loaded phrasing for the sake of speed). Instead of continuing to push the angle of this Nightborne/Blood Elf alliance, as cute as the shipping is, show me how the Nightborne are working with the Highmountain, their closest neighbors. What are these two nations which are so radically different coming up with as they consolidate power over the Broken Isles under the Horde banner? Show me more of the Forsaken working with the Tauren, as in the days of Vanilla, wisdom tempering experimentation, death and dark caves contrasting life on bright savannahs. I could go on.

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I don’t think the Horde deserve, much less need to be turned into villains every few expansions, but they would almost be better at this point being the villain, or just not. If there isn’t going to be something as flat even as a tit-for-tat it just makes it seem like the blood fued is always going to happen, this rendering them a forever villain anyway.

That’s besides what I wanted to say though. They don’t need to be the villains, but I strongly disagree, and believe that they need to be shown dealing with strife. The rise of Thrall’s Horde had a lot to do with rising above adversity, and while I guess that might be annoying to constantly be dealing with, I also think it’s satisfying to see overcome. Sure, eventually they would need to plateau, but at that point it would almost exclusively be internal conflict. Maybe I would try to call it world building instead, but I just can’t see much that could come out of it other then just hack laughs, and comedy almost, sure the occasion lifted spirits, or rise of the cockles.

While I think that the comparison between the Klingon, and Federation should…somewhat be a comparable set of attributes. The actual dichotomy that the Horde/Alliance value system reminds me of is Harkonnen/Atreides, is it not? Not laying your life down for the Horde already is stigmatized, and not just by the Horde’s characters. If you want to choose how you get to die, that already sort of is a betrayal for the Horde, eh? Atleast it’s considered this way by some. Maybe it’s not taking honor to its full capacity, but it’s not entirely a idea that’s beneficial to be encompassed with, regarding how the Horde will twist it against you.

House Harkonnen had built its power on maximising production output, and minimising production expenses by ignoring economically ethical behaviour. Indeed, Harkonnen governing was based upon a simple foundation of fear and terror. They were used in governance, in the day-to-day running of the Harkonnen household, and in controlling the Harkonnen armies. With a social order based on treachery and punishment, soldiers rose through the ranks through deceit, trickery and, if necessary, assassination.

No. No its not.

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The Horde has and will always be what it was established as in WC3

A group of races that others view monstrous that are just trying to survive, and would rather be left alone. But if you poke the bear, they will tear your face off.

The hearthstone writers understand this, with the current set being a love letter to the Barrens and what it means to be Horde.

The devs have a b0ner for Warcraft 2 that players hardly care about. WC3 is what made the IP famous, and they need to keep the Horde roots within what WC3 set up.

The appeal of the factions was always how they approached things in comparison to each other…as highlighted by the Pandaren starting zone.

Another good example:

The Onyxia chains in classic

Alliance - A guard has gone missing that leads to a political plot uncovering a black dragon posing as a figurehead and the reason for the turmoil within the human lands, resulting in ousting the very dragon from Stormwind before hunting the black dragons down to exact justice.

Horde - We are bad@$$. Let’s go kill dragons to prove it. What’s this? There is another horde? Rend Blackhand is alive and allied with the black dragons? Let’s kill them and bring his head to Thrall so we can put to rest any attachment we have to the Old Horde, and then let’s bring it to those black dragons to show them the might of the Horde.

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Arrows in her quiver. Goblin industry. Saurfang. None of that’s ringing a bell with your wiki article?

Experiments in UC. Slavery in SMC. Derek’s Rez. Zelling’s Rez. Garrosh. Southern Barrens… Cairne’s death. Broken Shore. Thrall’s Assassins…

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Maybe if you have a perspective where you only read about half the quest text and environmental storytelling and thus only have a first-blush surface level understanding of those things. Also lol at citing Sylvanas and her assassinated character as emblmeatic of the Horde’s values

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One faction, is at the mercy of their ‘non-emblmeatic’ actions, regardless of what it means for the Horde.

The sad thing is that the retconned version of Warcraft 2 that they rewrote when Warcraft 3 was made (and that we see in Chronicle for a more recent iteration) isn’t even irreconcilable with the modern version of the story or the Horde. Its why the rumors that there might be a Warcraft 3 movie in the works bothers me so much. A definitive telling of the Warcraft 2 story in its modern form would be great to see, with a Doomhammer who kills Blackhand and the Shadow Council in a desperate effort to save the Horde from its own corruption. Who attacks the Northern Kingdoms only after recognizing the unfortunate reality that the Horde has no hope of winning a defensive war when the Stormwinders convince their northern kin to unite and help them retake their homeland. Who finds an ally in Zul’jin who’s people have been crushed under the bootheel of the Alliance races for thousands of years and whom he promises to make strong again and reclaim lands that are rightfully theirs. Who faces Lothar in single combat hoping to break his enemy’s spirit as a last desperate chance to win the war only to see his protege take up the banner and drive his people back through the portal anyway. Who goes into exile when he sees what becomes of the Orcish survivors in human camps rather than be made a chained pet and tool of the Alliance king, and is there waiting when a revolutionary named Thrall, son of his old friend Durotan, comes looking for allies to help him set his people free.

Like, the same people who seem bent on taking the Horde back to Warcraft 2 wrote a better version of Warcraft 2 based on a heroic Horde. I don’t get it.

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Only after they lose a war in which they either committed a war crime or genocide.

I still don’t understand what was so wrong about Daelin following the Orcs to try and recapture them, I mean, they were imprisoned for a reason, it’s not like they served their sentence for attempted genocide in just a 20 year span.

The Horde has done more damage to the Alliance as a whole now then the legion, scourge and void combined, the Alliance simply shouldn’t tolerate their presence on Azeroth.

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The thread is about heroics, but you do have a point. So far the Horde aren’t really leaving anyone else alone, and then get to lay down their arms once things are drastically imbalanced out of their favor.

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They were imprisoned for an entire generation, if I’m understanding. Were lethargic and largely a non-issue while in the camps.

Even those who were avoiding the camps were just surviving, rather than waging any wars.

Furthermore, the first thing Thrall does when he liberates his people isn’t start another war…He leaves to go find a place of their own away from the humans so that there can still be peace.

Daelin lets his hatred blind him, and it ultimately is his downfall. He’d be alive if he just let the orcs leave, though its understandable why he doesn’t…for fear of them revolting again.

Under Thrall however, the orcs never do enter an open war again. There are border skirmishes, but its not until Garrosh that the orcs wage into a full-blown war once more.

This is something I find incredibly bias. The horde have at most, wiped out cities. The legion however, is attempting to destroy the planet, something the Horde does not want to do. The scourge also attempted to destroy every living thing on the planet…something the Horde did not try to do. The Void has largely just been shown as incompetent, but I think this is simply because it gets almost zero screen time.

The Horde

  • destroyed original Stormwind
  • waged war with Lordearon and lost
  • Waged war on Kalimdor and largely won, destroying Theramore (a city that claimed neutrality but was being used to send troops to assault Horde territories)
  • Burned down Teldrassil

The Legion

  • attempted to destroy the planet 3 times
  • stabbed a giant sword into the planet causing the very lifeblood of the planet to ooze out, threatening all life

The Void

  • Old Gods attempting to consume the entire planet and end all of reality through the void lords

The Scourge

  • attempted to kill all life on the planet to unite under one banner, so that they could stand against the Burning Legion to save Azeroth

Nowhere in the Horde scope of things do they ever seem intent on destroying the planet.

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:eyes: I mean…

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Why does every Horde lore thread have to get invaded by people who hate the Horde? Also Daelin Proudmoore wanted to “recapture,” the Orcs? HAHAHAHAHA. Ok chief. Truly a statement worthy of a sentence which equates perpetual race-based internment camps which were within only a few years of their creation already being used as a source of slave labor with a proper judicial punishment for crimes.

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It’s an open forum. You can also check the Allisnce lore threads if you want to feel parity.

I recommend the ones where Droite defends racial genocide in WoD.

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Lol please, a generation is like 20-30 years. Getting sentenced for 40 years for pre-mediated mass slaughter would be considered a miracle let alone mass genocide.

I’m sure lots of IRL criminals have mellowed out and changed their ways, but they still stay in prison because it doesn’t undo the crimes they’ve committed and the punishment they deserve.

Yeah, we call those fugitives.

Aka he breaks people who have slaughtered innocents out of prison.

And surprise surprise he was right.

Yeah it’s a shame to since if Thrall didn’t have to step down he’d be Warchief forever because he is both immortal and interested in being Warchief for the rest of his life /s

Notice how I said the Horde has ‘done’ more damage not ‘attempted to do’.

I’m talking about wanting to completely wipe out the Alliance which they’ve done multiple times. From an Alliance perspective, there’s no difference between the Horde wiping them all out and the Horde destroying the whole planet.

So let me get this straight, the Orcs come to an unsuspecting planet, commit mass genocide against the native population, destroy their cities and way of life and when the natives win it’s bad to make them into slaves to try and make them undo their damages?

The Orcs had no resources to give as reparations and the Humans voted against just wiping them out, why wouldn’t they have physically rebuilt Human civilisation for them? And why wouldn’t they make them do it forcibly instead of giving them a choice?

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…Yes? Unequivocally absolutely yes? What the heck is wrong with you?

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The alliance have plenty of sh!tlickers as well:

Draenei - the main race of the legion, and the whole reason the orcs got corrupted to begin with

Night Elves - Legit created well of eternity, which drew the legion in through Azshara

Dark Irons - tried to summon Ragnaros to enslave the entire world

Do we ever even know if the orcs found out it was an eredar that tricked them? I wonder if that’s ever been addressed…and if not, if they would feel bad about slaughtering the draenei who are the reason Kil’jaeden corrupted them in the first place?

Also, most people, unless given a life sentence, have a chance for parole after 20 years. What about the children being born in the camps? etc. etc.

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Its reasonable to not hold the Draenei responsible for the actions of the Eredar given they explicitly exiled themselves to disassociate from those actions. Although they still (imo rightly) carry some self-imposed guilt for it despite that because they recognize the arrogance and decadence of their society is why they were so vulnerable to the Legion’s offer in the first place. Night Elves would probably generally make the same argument vis a vis their choice to leave their old life behind, up to and including the incredibly dickish move of exiling all the Arcane Magic Users from their society for the crime of making a second Well despite many of those people being heroes who’d fought side-by-side with them throughout the War of Ancients. There’s an argument to be made that the modern Orcs never TRULY rejected the basic society that accepted the Legion’s temptation in the way that the Draenei and Night Elves did, although I don’t think its anywhere close to a bulletproof argument. That was really the core of Saurfang’s arc in BFA (one of the only non-trash parts of that story)

More importantly, its entirely wrongheaded to even think about Orcish Internment as some kind of proper legal punishment for their war crimes. The idea is so beyond baffling I don’t even know how to parse it. That’s not how wars work.

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Oh OP, don’t you know, people and characters capable of flaws can’t be heroes or heroic? Flaws = Evil in this setting. Which is why its so easy to turn the Horde Faction and Races into a plot device to push whatever hairbrained story Blizz wants to tell. Because, they don’t even need to consider things like motives or means when making those “people” do something horrific … they can just default to subtly racist GoodRace/EvilRace tropes (due to the method they chose to subvert those tropes originally).

You are either Born Good, Flawless, and Pure Idyllic Avatars of ALL the Virtues ever conceived. Untarnished by humanizing traits. Or you’re deeply flawed monsters who can only hope to prove themselves not evil by how convenient and submissive you are to those who are morality itself in Warcraft.

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