WoW towns are not specifically made to scale.
Just because Auberdine looks like 3 houses and an inn it doesn’t mean it actually is like that.
The scale game model is different than lore.
Kultiras is supposed to be the size of a small island off the coast of Lordaeron.
But due to ingame limits they had to increase its size to a playable scale… which now makes Kultiras bigger than Lordearon and Quelthelas put together.
Since he didn’t respond to it I just want to reiterate my mans literally said that when the Scarlet Crusade says “I want to kill all undead” they actually don’t include the Forsaken in that and don’t want to wipe them out at all.
The Scarlet Crusade has always been very progressive and supportive of the Forsaken and I’ve always appreciated that about them.
Little late to the party, but Lordaeron isn’t the human homeland either. Arathor (contemporary Stromgarde) is. When the first human kingdom was founded by Thoradin, the area that comprises Lordaeron was still apart of the Amani Empire.
Yeah and then he had us go and wipe out the faction of undead slaying champions. He also refers to this being a sentiment he used to hold and doesn’t anymore. You can say that it’s only because the Scarlets were also killing humans but it doesn’t change the past tense.
You’re grasping at straws and even the least generous reading of this situation still pales in comparison to what the Forsaken did and advocated.
Stupid question. Where is the home of the undead? Of course, the homeland is where you were born and all that, but at some point on the forum they said that the undead are a separate race, and not a state of the body. Where is the home of the undead? Northrend? Or Outland?
This was changed in Chronicles. Tirisfal was where humanity first landed in the Eastern Kingdoms and human tribes had remained there all throughout Thoradin’s unification.
Maldraxxus
First off, he says he used to think they were noble, not that he used to be pro-killing undead. Pretty obvious.
Second, he was still part of the Stormwind-endorsed Alliance to Scarlet pipeline even when he was fully loyal to the Crusade, which is the point. Stormwind welcomed envoys from a group they knew were genocidal to the Forsaken, and only stopped once they found out humans were also dying.
Lordaeron (at least for the most part - for Dark Rangers it’s Quel’thalas)
Daelin tried it once. Kristoff did it again. There continue to be forces that want to finish the job and they maintain forward bases even closer to Orgrimmar. And the city continues serving as a forward operating position for Stormwind as part of their conflict with the Horde.
The Horde’s presence in Lordaeron is a police action intended to safeguard the rights of Forsaken. Similarly, don’t think the Alliance are very interested in protecting any races on Kalimdor outside of the Night Elves.
The Fall of the Lordaeron happened because he majority of its human citizens were killed, leaving the Forsaken with near total control of what was once Lordaeron. The Blight was developed specifically to kill the Lich King. That’s why it kills both the living AND the undead and it’s first deployment ever was against the Lich King. Well, up until Cataclysm, where again, we see the Horde being evulz for teh lulz on several fronts.
I don’t insist the Alliance withdraw from Kalimdor or the Horde withdraw from the EK. I think it create an interesting dynamic and facilitates conflict, which is the basis of any good story, especially one involving themes like war, national alligences, etc.
What I ask is that if the Horde and Alliance be portrayed as equal players in this game, that their situations be treated as equal. Either they’re both acting in the right. They’re both acting in the wrong, or they’re both have complicated claims that are are partially valid/partially invalid and are treated with the complexity and nuance that requires. Not something as when Alliance does the bad= Good, but when Horde does the bad=bad.
I once served the Scarlet Crusade with honor, loyalty and pride. I believed their cause to be a noble one: to rid Azeroth of the undead.
Believed. As in, a belief that was once held but is no longer held.
A) Are you seriously claiming that the fact that he was a former member at all is now evidence of permanent genocidal intent?
B) That’s not how the history of the Scarlet Crusade works. They weren’t always a genocidal group and for several years were just a rebranded branch of the Silver Hand. It wasn’t until very recently as of vanilla that they were clearly off their rocker, and once the Alliance found out about it they severed and went all in on the Argent Dawn.
This I can agree with at least.
However, we shouldn’t interpret past lore through what we would like it to be as opposed to what it is.
I just realized the Scarlet Crusade is the Alliance’s Mujahideen.
So this means they should be allowed to pretend to be righteous and good as they kill/displace other indigenous groups while condemning others for doing the same? Because that’s what they ended up doing in Kalimdor.
I have no issue with them settling somewhere because they have no choice. But we have to decide; if we say it’s okay and good for them to do, why is it not okay and good for others to do?
Yeah, he believed their cause to be a noble one. Now he no longer believes it to be noble cause he found it its “kill everyone not us” and hes not down, which is specifically the thing he identifies as his problem… But this is pedantic and really doesn’t matter.
No I’m claiming that the Scarlet Crusuades open desire to slaughter all undead is known and Stormwind willingly sheltered them and let them recruit from their city despite this. This individual crusader and whether or not he redeems himself from his genocidal views isn’t actually important on its own, really.
As with every time this defense is played up, it must be reiterated that the Alliance only cared when they started killing non-undead, which is the entire point I’m making.
It doesn’t continue to serve as anything actually because the Horde destroyed it. And you didn’t address my point, which is that these are qualities that you yourself are asserting defined Theramore’s relationship with the Horde but it wasn’t corroborated by the Horde themselves. You claim that destroying Theramore was doing a favor to Central Kalimdor’s indigenous population but it was never Kalimdor’s indigenous population that advocated for it; it was the Orcs, over time.
lol
No, it was explicitly designed to be used on humans. Sylvanas and Varimathras explicitly ordered a campaign of extermination to wipe out the human and dwarven presence to their south.
“Lady Sylvanas has charged Varimathras with the conquering of the human and dwarven lands to the south.”
You genuinely do not seem to have your facts straight as to what was actually happening in Lordaeron while the Horde was extending its unconditional support to the Forsaken, which I guess makes sense given that the Horde didn’t have any idea what they were up to despite offering unconditional support either.
But we can look at what is, say, “No. That’s bad writing. Stop writing like that. Write better. Closer to the way you used to write before,” and Blizzard can actually do that. Even go back and retroactively justify stuff, like they have before.
Is the eradication of a zombie horde that destroyed and killed everyone you loved really that bad?
Again, agreed. But if that’s what you are saying here, that hasn’t been clear. It has instead looked as though you’re arguing what you believe to be the case based on what right now is canon (a descriptive argument) versus what you would like to see (a normative argument) - and we run into problems with Hume’s guillotine at this point - those arguments do not connect to one another.
This entire example is pedantic. That’s why it sucks.
This is incorrect. The entire quest chain that you get from the guy in the basement culminates in the quest we’re talking about, where we learn that the Scarlets are completely nuts. Stormwind didn’t know anything about what the Scarlet Crusade was doing in Lordaeron other than “killing undead” which was seen as acceptable because that was assumed to mean Scourge, the overwhelmingly dominant faction of undead at the time.
In fact, based on the quest, it’s not even clear if the emissary in the basement knew that the Scarlets had gone nuts.