Baseless headcanon. There is absolutely no reason to think that Stormwind thought the Scarlet Crusade did not include Forsaken in their definition of undead, which is an absurd concept because everyone does.
Nobody goes “I thought they were only killing Scourge, not Forsaken”. They go “I thought they were only killing undead, not humans!”
You’re massively inflating the importance of the Forsaken in everyone’s collective consciousness in the aftermath of the Third War. Even the Scarlet Crusade’s position on them under Alexandros was “yeah we’ll probably fight them eventually but they’re smalltime compared to the Scourge.”
To ask again, is this the best you can do? This is your answer to Forsaken death camps and gas chambers?
Forsaken aren’t human. They are Undead who used to have free will.
Now with the lore being that every undead has their soul destroyed which makes them irrational and violent then… I guess instead of mindless undead they are intelligent undead.
The idea that Stormwind’s consideration of the Forsaken was so low they would forget they existed is so insane on its face I can’t believe even you of all people are saying it and that’s something.
They’re literally fighting a war with them across half a sub-continent.
Not only was Theramore destroyed, but it’s destruction was treated as a tragedy. Meanwhile, the Murlocs they killed to settle the marsh was not. The Stonespire clan that got wiped out was not. The actual attacks against Orgrimmar… well those were indeed used to illustrated how the Alliance wasn’t perfect and had some flaws.
But no, I don’t expect modern Blizzard to ever show us how a place is better off without Alliance colonialism- even though they absolutely would be. Heck, Blizzard does the opposite by often painting indigenous people as DESERVING of Human/Elf colonialism. That’s like the central point of my complaint. Whenever the Alliance does bad stuff, Blizzard has a tendency to paint them as being in the right. And when the Horde does bad stuff, it’s much quicker to paint them as being in the wrong. And it will jump through hoops to do this. And it needs to end.
And if I can find any quote of any Alliance officer asking for the destruction of Orcs/Orgrimmar/Horde or Forsaken, then that proves that the Alliance isn’t interested in anything other than wiping these other people out, right? Because they were the ones in a much better position to actually DO it until Cataclysm flipped everything upside down and decided the Horde was the only world threat in town.
They weren’t fighting a war with the Forsaken. Again, we’re talking Vanilla. I was there. I remember all this. The Alliance’s focus was entirely on the Scourge. They only dealt with the Forsaken in the “hints of a new plague” questline. I remember this because I was frustrated with how little the Alliance acknowledged the Forsaken threat, but it makes sense that they would do so given the Scourge’s overwhelming power.
Are the Quillboar or Centaurs being killed by the Horde treated as a tragedy?
Sir do you know what an Arathi Basin is.
Again even if like, they weren’t fighting them, they wouldn’t forget they existed lmao. What a nonsense concept.
I dunno - the game seems to be on a kick of telling me that trying to fight the Horde because of what they did to Teldrassil is evil and that I should instead forget about it and focus on renewal.
A skirmish, brought on by a Forsaken invasion of Stromgarde. The League of Arathor was fighting them, but the only Alliance support they had was financial and in the form of players.
It wasn’t. I’d like to direct you to the map that accompanies the section on the Founding of Arathor in Chronicles. It shows the boundaries of the Empire of Arathor and the Amani Empire.
As for humanity “first landing” in Tirisfal, I think you’re a bit confused. This implies that humans sailed from some place and landed in Lordaeron, subsequently settling there. The vrykul, during the reign of King Ymiron, took their degenerative children there, taught them how to survive, and then left. Afterwards, these human tribes were disparate–we find records of early humans in the Kaldorei Empire, possibly even in Pandaria (a la Taran Zhu). Yes, there were humans living in Tirisfal at the time of Thoradin, but they were subsisting as a part of a previous diaspora of the cursed vrykul. The lands they occupied were clearly (as noted in Chronicles) apart of the Amani Empire.
When we speak of a homeland, we mean an established place where a collective cultural or national identity is formed. That place is the Arathi Highlands. It is Arathor, because Arathor is the first instance we see of a collective, cultural and political coalescence of humanity.
“Here’s some money to go fight…those people you’re fighting whos name I cannot recall. Here on my map of Lordaeron everything north of Hillsbrad just says “Here there be dragons”. How odd.” - The Alliance, apparently.
Yeah man for sure. This definitely is what happened.
I’ve been quite insistant on my main point. Not just in this thread, but across various threads.
The Alliance was once given more tangible flaws. Capable of doing bad things and being portrayed as doing bad things. Similarly, the Horde was once written as being a lot more understandable and able to be the put upon party. It was a cold war situation in which there was general parity and if a war broke out, it’d be part of a complicated mess with no clear good guy/bad guy.
And then WotLK saw Varian declare war, for what seemed like a somewhat justifiable reason.
Then, especially around the time around Cataclysm when the faction war flared up, Blizzard started moving more into Alliance=always right and good and justified, and Horde= bad evil wrong bad guys who do things because they’re flawed as a RACE. What’s good/bad/gray doesn’t matter as to how something will be portrayed anymore so much as WHO does it now. And to who.
Now the two factions are at war because the Horde finds itself repeatedly led by someone pulled straight out of Warcraft I. And the Alliance has continued along its path until Anduin is its posterboy.
That has to change.
Arathor wasn’t the first human settlement in Lordaeron, it was the first major human empire. It had its core in the Arathi Highlands but that isn’t where humanity as a whole is “from.” Even forming Arathor required that Thoradin earn the allegience of the humans living in Alterac and Tirisfal.
The human presence in the Eastern Kingdoms was in Tirisfal first (because that is where the Vrykul brought them, as you pointed out) and it slowly spread over time to encompass most of Lordaeron, with the three biggest tribes being in Tirisfal, Alterac, and Arathi. They shared much of these lands with the Forest Trolls, and there was plenty of human-troll conflict, but that doesn’t change the fact that these are the human homelands.
Tirisfal’s prominence in human culture is actually very significant. It isn’t just where humans first came to the Eastern Kingdoms, it’s also where the Holy Light as a religion traces its origins, with the initial worship of Keeper Tyr by the tribes in the region.
mfw you’re fighting or supporting battles against the Forsaken in multiple kingdoms, have an active SI:7 investigation into their movements in the plaguelands, and you have a panic attack at the mere thought of Nathanos Marris now working with them, but also when this cool red hat guy says he wants to kill all undead you totally forgot they existed convienetly so the resulting genocidal attacks aren’t your fault at all pls believe
No. Which makes it so odd that killing any of these other race gets treated as one. Either by the narrative or the players.
I think that you badly need to sit down and review the lore of Warcraft 3 and early WoW sometime because even if your beliefs aren’t wrong, the basis for a lot of them are based on incorrect recollections of events and that is going to drag down your credibility regardless of the validity of your overall point.
Likely because these races are treated as “evil” and aren’t given a perspective. I’d say it’s kind of hard to have a lot of sympathy for races whose sole existence is to be antagonistic towards the player, or the playable races.
It’s different when we start talking about playable races because there are people on the other side of those equations - as in people behind computer screens.
It doesn’t even matter, since the quest text explicitly said that they aren’t ideas that are held anymore, and now you’re posting like Porky Pig trying to find ways to spin that to be as bad as Forsaken death camps because you know as well as I do that the Forsaken were never subjected to the kind of treatment or sentiment by the Alliance as the Forsaken did to the Alliance.
It’s really interesting that you keep bringing up that one guys views like it matters because it belies a fundamental inability to understand what I’m saying.
Like, it’s not hard. Scarlets walk into Stormwind, go “hello sir we are here to kill all the undead”. Bolvar and Benedictus are like “yo cool”. This is active Alliance support for genocide of the Forsaken, and active support for the death of every Forsaken civilian slain by the Scarlets until they dropped support. The end.
Your insistence that every human leader involved had a sudden brain hemorrhage lasting coincidentally only as long as their support for the Scarlets and forgot the Forsaken existed and thus they aren’t culpable for their deaths at the hands of the Crusade is, to put it lightly, absurd and hilarious.