Phin Odelic is not still alive. He was slain in the Battle of Silverpine.
They weren’t parlaying with genociders. The context of this quest was the Alliance players following some breadcrumbs until they meet the guy you’re quoting, who tells you that the Scarlets are messed up and you need to clear Scarlet Monastery.
You are somehow trying to spin a situation where the Alliance DOESN’T attack the undead but instead the Scarlets as signifying genocidal intent on the part of the Alliance on par with Sylvanases and that’s laughably insane.
Ah yes “We don’t see anyone here, must be nobody living here.” Definitely a valid argument that settlement isn’t colonial and not the one that settlers repeated ad nauseum IRL to defend the legitimacy of their settlements.
Especially in the context of it being “empty” in large part due to a series of wars and calamities that decimated Lordaeron’s native population, some of which were perpetuated by the Horde themselves in the form of the Forsaken.
Yeah it’s cool that they can be honest about it instead of dressing it up with whinging nonsense like the Horde does with their imperialist actions.
Where’s my winter grove city on the foothills of Ironforge mountain? And can you explain why Tirisfal seems to have zero spike-ridden Orc settlements?
You can’t impose a standard that no one else follows, although funnily enough - the Night Elves actually do follow it - only with Draenei and Worgen. The Draenei for instance were building a settlement at Forest Song.
Stop using “Stormwind” as though it’s some kind of alien entity. As of WoW and beyond, indigenous people from all over the Eastern Kingdoms live in Stormwind. This is indigenous people fighting for the land that they are indigenous to.
The Battle that takes place several years after Quae says she wants to kill every Forsaken in his name? Damn dude, I didn’t know she was a time traveller.
A quick google search before making confident assertions would do you wonders. You’re pretty clearly displaying you don’t even know what the things I’m referencing are and yet you want to argue against them.
The Alliance player meets with a Scarlet envoy welcomed by the church of Stormwind (whose Archbishop describes killing undead as a “mercy” and preforms rituals where he burns their hearts), who sends you on a number of quests, including one to another Scarlet envoy welcomed by Southshore, who tells you that killing all undead is radical and badical but actually the Scarlet also kill humans and that’s the only reason they’re bad.
I mean if you have info indicating they are wrong I’d love to have it.
Well I assume you now accept Jaina’s people were not just an army roaming around looking to put down a military base but a refugee force that was looking to settle land.
And the land they settled was Dustallow Marsh.
I can’t say Jaina received a formal permission to settle the land since nobody claimed it and since her companion Pain stood by her side and both Night Elves and Jaina maintained friendly relations I doubt Jaina got anything but support to settle that land.
And once again Jaina and her people remained in their lands and did not expand or clash with the Horde until Garrosh started his war.
Come on Tammy, both Theramore and Orgrimmar are legitimate settlements.
Did your google search also tell you that the person in question is a Night Elf? And the quest doesn’t say she wants to kill every one of him in his name; it says that she’d do it if he wanted her to.
If you think that someone saying “we want to destroy the undead” demonstrates genocidal intent then I have bad news for you about literally everyone. They weren’t even talking about the Forsaken here, you’re just assuming that the Forsaken were included in that group even though everyone, Alliance included, recognizes the distinction.
If this is the best you’ve got I’ve gotta say it’s weak as hell compared to what the Forsaken did in Vanilla. One Night Elf saying they’re kill the Forsaken if they were told to and another guy saying he wants the undead off of Azeroth? Compared to the Forsaken’s industrialized torture machine complete with an entire district in their city and literal gas chambers?
One set of colonizers (the Horde) helped them survive and rebuild. The other (the Alliance) has in several instances contributed to wiping them out. Who they should side with is obvious.
Prior to Cataclysm, none of the Horde leaders expressed desire to attack Theramore. But plenty of Alliance leadership wanted to attack Orgrimmar. There had already been 2 prior attempts.
The problem here is that in Cataclysm, they just went and flipped that dynamic. Just to have the Horde be the baddies.
It does not elevate it above other inhabitants of central Kalimdor, no. It does elevate it above Stormwind’s/Teldrassil’s/Ironforge/Lordaeron’s/Theramore’s’s though.
Neither does the mere presence and willingness to support the Alliance’s geopolitical interests elevate the Human Lordaeronian’s interests above everyone elses, especially considering the Humans’ conduct towards other indigenous groups in the area (Trolls, Gnolls, Murlocs, etc.). And no, Forsaken are definitely not in the minority in Lordaeron.
What we have is several groups finding themselves in very similar geopolitical and ethical situations. And yet only one actually gets portrayed as ever being scary, evil and in the wrong as of late.
And that’s the problem. I’m not saying the Horde and Alliance are good. I’m saying they’re both guilty of a lot of the same stuff in these instances. It’s only you who’s trying to draw similarities between these situations and explain how the Horde is wrong but the Alliance is right.
The very first people who arrived were refugee force that was looking to settle land. They didn’t last very long until an army roaming around looking put down a military base. And that’s what Theramore became.
Duthallow Marsh has native inhabitants. Murlocs. The Alliance just wiped them out.
Inb4 “Murlocs don’t count” and a bunch of other reasons why it’s actually okay and good for the Alliance to unilaterally wipe them out, while not giving any slack to the Horde that helped the Tauren fight back the centaur and quillboar that were literally genociding them.
And yeah, I think Theramore was a legitimate settlement. But it’s existence as a base by the Alliance was an obviously aggressive move that should have been acknowledged more by Blizzard when it finally came time to launch a faction war. It and the Alliance in general should not have been treated by Blizzard as just minding it’s own business and not doing anything until the big bad evil Horde came and blew it up.
Wow that’s actually really embarrassing and I’ll cop to it.
This on the other hand is less convincing and also kinda freaking me out that you’d think thats a notable distinction.
What level of whitewashing is it when you’re so obsessed with the moral purity of fictional characters that you start insisting that the SCARLET CRUSADE (who thinks literally everyone who isn’t them is plagued) is actually making the distinction between “undead” and “Forsaken” and actually isn’t genocidal.
Again, I really enjoy the frantic leaping between “Forsaken are preforming an industrialized genocide on humanity to the point where Theramore civilians cannot return to their homes” and “Forsaken are so lame that humanity literally doesn’t even think about them at all when it comes to Lordaeron”
Murlocs and Quillboar are both native victims of both Alliance and the Horde settling the land after Lordaeron was destroyed by the scourge.
The lore states Jaina grabbed any survivor she could and took them to Kalimdor. Why are you so intent on villainizing Jaina’s presence on Kalimdor? This is pretty well established stuff.
If her sole crime is “Well she setteled too close to the Orcs” then we can say that is exactly what the Orcs did to the Night Elves but unlike the Orcs Jaina was not constantly raiding and killing Orcs or Tauren in the Barrens or Durotar.
There had been one attempt by Daelin which the Alliance disavowed. Is the other one also those Kul Tiran camps or are you talking about the one in Cycle of Hatred which was a Burning Blade plot? Neither of them are the Alliance.
And I think you’ve lost the plot. Suppose you’re right and the Alliance was antagonistic but the Horde wasn’t antagonistic in response? That just means that your claims that destroying Theramore was some kind of affirmative action in support of the indigenous Tauren was even more wrong since you yourself have said that the Horde didn’t want to attack Theramore.
I was talking about the Forsaken actually, whose interests you claim supersede the interests of the rest of Lordaeron’s indigenous population for no reason other than that the Forsaken are Horde.
Oh please. Are you going to sit here and type that the Horde’s colonial presence in Lordaeron is a police action intended to safeguard the rights of Gnolls and Murlocs? Don’t demean both of our intelligences.
Yes, they are. Almost all of their material actions since WoW began has been motivated by the fact that they’re a demographic minority in Lordaeron, be that compared to other undead, or to humans. That’s why they needed the Horde and it’s why they needed to emphasize asymmetrical military tactics like the Plague.
Okay, sure if you want to treat it like that, but you insist on the Alliance withdrawing from Kalimdor while maintaining that the Horde has a right to retain ITS colonial holdings in the Eastern Kingdoms, even when its insistence on doing so is one of the main reasons the Alliance was in central Kalimdor at all.
It’s hypocrisy. Colonialism is only okay when the Horde does it.
Orgrimmar is way bigger than Theramore because Orgrimmar is actually the central population center not just for orcs. Anywhere. Also significant numbers of Tauren and Trolls.
Theramore is not the central population center of any of its inhabitants. They all have lands and even entire kingdoms elsewhere on which to settle.
Because the Scourge’s industrialized genocide was far, far more powerful and efficient. The Forsaken being weaker than the Scourge doesn’t also make them less hostile.
No they don’t. The Horde will kill them if they try to go back where they came from. And “go and settle in Stormwind” is not a valid response, as that is still indigenous displacement.
Eh, not really. Sure, they could go to places that are foreign to them, but as has been pointed out to you, these are largely Lordaeronian refugees whose home is, shall we say under new management.
They have more of a basis to call Theramore home than they do Stormwind - it’s at least a place that they built with their own hands, like Orgrimmar.
Although, if you want to run this argument, we could talk about whether with the opening of the Dark Portal, the Orcs should have jumped at the chance to go to Durotar. It’s the same principle, after all.