The Horde: A Different Type of Heroism

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

I mentioned this individual to point out that you are one voice among many, and as I explained to you before - the proposal raised would have involved content that would have been optional to PVErs.

No, you mentioned that individual to have a vague “Token Horde” to argue against SO MANY Horde posters being in opposition to supporting PvP on a story level, or the Faction conflict going forward. Because we’ve been burned so hard by Blizz on both those fronts, we cannot trust them to ever not villain bat us again (not that they need to at this point, as it will always come off as “beating up our victims”).

PvP no longer needs to be supported on a story level. It didn’t need to years ago. The Faction Conflict has been NOTHING but destructive and negative for the Horde Faction since Cata; and has left our Faction, Faction Identity, Racial Fantasies, and Character Roster in utter ruin. What we need is distance from the Alliance to even attempt to start repairing those. Not thrown into conflict with the walking purity test again.

EDIT: You want to get your hits in on the Horde to satisfy YOUR needed reinforcement of your Power Fantasy? Do it. Just stop pretending my benefit is anything other than a clear afterthought in that agenda.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

You’re just reading from your usual script at this point, so I think we’re done here. I am not going to be accepting your “No True Scotsman” fallacy.

Good day.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Zerde-sargeras

It literally does not especially considering Australia and New Zealand are not in the “North”.

The ongoing use no longer depends on the latitude definition dude, it’s rather just anyone who exists as Economic Core rather than Economic Periphery.

The Core/Periphery definition has replaced the Latitude-dependent definition.

We use GN/GS more than Core/Periphery because the language of Core vs Periphery puts people on the defensive when discussing economic international inequality, for the same reason “neocolonial” is hardly used.

@Zerde-sargeras

Black skins, the use of middle eastern inspired garbs, the use of camels/caravans and the use of “Caliph” to describe their leader or the use of Zahra, a middle eastern name.

Caliph is the name, not the title, and again, they are former pirates of the Human Kingdoms, criminals, and they live primarily in Troll or Tol’vir ruins.

It’s more Lawrence of Arabia, or the Visgothic (ie European) Caliphs of Al-Andalus, rather than any MENA/Muslim metaphor imho.

So no, I wouldn’t be keen on considering them in-game representations of IRL MENA peoples, but rather in-game representations of European colonists in MENA during their colonial period.

@Zerde-sargeras

Draka is an orc(which have always been call noble savages by Blizzard themselves) having orcish mannerism. Which include her penchant for wild if not ouright violent activies.

That is not what a Noble Savage is lol

And nah they haven’t used that language since the early 2000s, when I figure someone told them that’s actually a racist trope and not a narrative to aspire to lol

@Zerde-sargeras

I must have been imagining him giving me quests in Zul’Garub and Zul’aman.

No you’re just confusing two dungeons with an entire expansion’s neutral character like Thrall, Magni, Bolvar, Khadgar (twice), etc were.

edit, excuse me, Khadgar THREE TIMES, forgot BC

[Micâh-moon-guard]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

That is not what a Noble Savage is lol

Wasn’t it often used by the English settlers to justify their mistreatment of the native Americans?

Correct me if I’m wrong.

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

Caliph is the name, not the title, and again, they are former pirates of the Human Kingdoms, criminals, and they live primarily in Troll or Tol’vir ruins.

Caliph Scorpidsting, leader of the Wastewander outlaws

It not a name, it is a title. They are also a group of humans who are not evil and were part of the group who helped us against N’zoth.

@Baalsamael-turalyon

The ongoing use no longer depends on the latitude definition dude, it’s rather just anyone who exists as Economic Core rather than Economic Periphery.

And that is why it is such a horrible term. Anyone who actually reads “Global South” and didnt know what it was implying(like myself) would confused/not immediately understand the terminology. Not to mention the implication that anyone south of the US/Europe is somehow economically doomed to be inferior.

@Baalsamael-turalyon

That is not what a Noble Savage is lol

Noble savage

A noble savage is a literary stock character who embodies the concept of the indigene, outsider, wild human, an “other” who has not been “corrupted” by civilization, and therefore symbolizes humanity’s innate goodness. Besides appearing in many works of fiction and philosophy, the stereotype was also heavily employed in early anthropological works.

Draka is/was an outsider, not brought up in anything we would considering “civilized” and simbolizes the innate strength in her “savage” upbringing.

@Baalsamael-turalyon

And nah they haven’t used that language since the early 2000s, when I figure someone told them that’s actually a racist trope and not a narrative to aspire to lol

Pretty sure the term was still being used and was used to describe Warlords of Draenor.

@Baalsamael-turalyon

No you’re just confusing two dungeons with an entire expansion’s neutral character like Thrall, Magni, Bolvar, Khadgar (twice), etc were.

Two dungeons and the entire pre-Siege of Ogrimmar event.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Micâh-moon-guard

Wasn’t it often used by the English settlers to justify their mistreatment of the native Americans?

Noble Savage is a Trope that comes in one of two forms historically:

1. Someone who is a Savage (read: Non-European) but has virtues because of their Savagery (ie proximity to nature)

e.g. Night Elf traditional characterization back in the day, or how the Atlanteans are treated in Disney’s Atlantis

2. Someone who is a Savage (ibid) but has virtues because of their proximity to the Savior (read: European)

e.g. Disney Pocahontas, or WoW’s Baine

[Erevien-aegwynn]

Noble savage trope is sanctioned racism against non white groups of people. Nobody with a sane mind should support that trope for their faction. The wc3 nostalgics need to shut up

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

@Micâh-moon-guard

Wasn’t it often used by the English settlers to justify their mistreatment of the native Americans?

I doubt it, especially considering adding the “noble” would have the implication that their mistreatment would be “ignoble”.

[Micâh-moon-guard]

Which is why I was asking. I knew it had a lot of racist undertones. Just wasn’t sure how the word was applied back than.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Zerde-sargeras

Draka is/was an outsider, not brought up in anything we would considering “civilized” and simbolizes the innate strength in her “savage” upbringing.

She isn’t a Noble Savage because she never actually interacts with any race other than her own lol it’s a requirement for the trope

@Zerde-sargeras

It not a name, it is a title.

In the character’s case is the name, given the new leader as of BFA doesn’t use it.

@Zerde-sargeras

They are also a group of humans who are not evil and were part of the group who helped us against N’zoth.

They were evil until BFA.

@Zerde-sargeras

Anyone who actually reads “Global South” and didnt know what it was implying(like myself) would confused/not immediately understand the terminology.

That goes for all academic terms.

@Zerde-sargeras

Pretty sure the term was still being used and was used to describe Warlords of Draenor.

Nope.

@Zerde-sargeras

Two dungeons and the entire pre-Siege of Ogrimmar event.

Is that a whole expansion now? Is that equal to Legion or WoD Khadgar now?

@Zerde-sargeras

I doubt it, especially considering adding the “noble” would have the implication that their mistreatment would be “ignoble”.

It was used as justification to have “human zoos” up until the mid 20th century in Europe.

[Waygs-bleeding-hollow]

@Micâh-moon-guard

Wasn’t it often used by the English settlers to justify their mistreatment of the native Americans?

Those native lands were valid military targets.

…wait I mixed up my justifications.

[Erevien-aegwynn]

@Droité-black-dragonflight

What we need is distance from the Alliance

Wrong. Next time we need to hit the alliance even harder so that they can’t stand up anymore. As long as the alliance exists Horde will never be allowed to have their own story. Alliance needs to go away fully first.

[Micâh-moon-guard]

It’s why I’m glad my ancestors immigrated to America in the late 1800s. Least my family doesn’t have to bear that dark part of American history.

[Erevien-aegwynn]

Sylvanas stays. Malfurion goes away. Best deal.

[Micâh-moon-guard]

I find it horrifying too. Like, the native Americans are human beings too, with a beautiful culture and they were massacred for being different or not good enough.

Some people just can’t help but let their real feelings out I suppose. Intentionally or not.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Waygs-bleeding-hollow

why I really, really dislike a lot of the Tropes WoW uses, and the way a lot of people describe wanting to exterminate the “brutal savages”

what you don’t just love the mishandling of Wounded Knee vis-a-vis Camp Taurajo and the as of late regular suggestion of certain Alliance posters to forcibly relocate (shall we say it would be a Trail of Tears?) the Horde, Tauren included, to Northrend as a giant reservation?

(Side note, am Nasa from southern Colombia/north Andes).

[Shernish-nazjatar]

Why violently? Voluntarily and at the initiative of the Horde.

Oh yes. So who should leave the house if the victim is the owner of the house?

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

She isn’t a Noble Savage because she never actually interacts with any race other than her own lol it’s a requirement for the trope

That is not all a requirement for the trope(even checking the wikipedia. Not to mention trope are guidelines and now all incompassing.

@Baalsamael-turalyon

In the character’s case is the title, given the new leader as of BFA doesn’t use it.

Regardless if it is a name or title it is still a name associated with a middle heritage.

@Baalsamael-turalyon

They were evil until BFA.

So are the Scarlet Crusade.

@Baalsamael-turalyon

Is that a whole expansion now? Is that equal to Legion or WoD Khadgar now?

I’d say it more equal to Magni, who had more of a passive role for most of BfA.

@Baalsamael-turalyon

It was used as justification to have “human zoos” up until the mid 20th century in Europe.

I think they used alot of things to justify human zoo. Even assuming “noble savage” was used in that context other used it more to contrast cultural rather the moral norms:

In “Of Cannibals”, Montaigne uses cultural (but not moral) relativism for the purpose of satire. His cannibals were neither noble nor exceptionally good, but neither were they suggested to be morally inferior to contemporary 16th-century Europeans. In this classical humanist portrayal, customs may differ but human beings in general are prone to cruelty in various forms, a quality detested by Montaigne.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Zerde-sargeras

That is not all a requirement for the trope(even checking the wikipedia. Not to mention trope are guidelines and now all incompassing.

Zerde, if the trope requires being perceived and judged to be a savage by an invading/Other force, how could Draka be a Noble Savage if nowhere in her character history she interacted with any invading force lol

@Zerde-sargeras

Regardless if it is a name or title it is still a name associated with a middle heritage.

Sure and I already said:

@Baalsamael-turalyon

It’s more Lawrence of Arabia, or the Visgothic (ie European) Caliphs of Al-Andalus, rather than any MENA/Muslim metaphor imho.

So no, I wouldn’t be keen on considering them in-game representations of IRL MENA peoples, but rather in-game representations of European colonists in MENA during their colonial period.

But hey if you want to consider the former pirates usually criminal/hostile humans in desert lands living in ruins of other peoples to be MENA-metaphors in-game, that’s you

@Zerde-sargeras

I’d say it more equal to Magni, who had more of a passive role for most of BfA.

??? This is a reach lol Magni was in our ear the whole damn expansion

@Zerde-sargeras

I think they used alot of things to justify human zoo. Even assuming “noble savage” was used in that context other used it more to contrast cultural rather the moral norms:

Still a racist trope beloved.

[Sarm-malganis (Sarm)]

I’m suddenly imagining Vol’jin trying to pronounce “woonz.”