Night Elves canonically won darkshore, get over it.
Attempts to invade Teldrassil, not burn it down, to seize it.
Learn 2 read
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The act of returning the territory does not cancel its loss. You’ll be complaining if Anduin kills all your leaders and then resurrects them, right?
The point of a well-done retcon is to change major points of a story while keeping chunks of it intact.
- Remove Teldrassil genocide
- Change it attempted Teldrassil conquest
- Night Elves and Gilneans and Draenei (reminder, they’re next door!) repel the Horde from taking Teldrassil and push everyone back out of Darkshore immediately and up to the current Horde vs Alliance Ashenvale territory that hasn’t changed since Cata
- Alliance still sieges Lordaeron and Forsaken are pushed out
There.
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I just read/check it and it’s a horrible misnomer/an instant dislike to it. http://re-design.dimiter.eu/?p=969
Did you ignore the Wastewater Bandits? Clearly middle eastern inspired people.
On that note, Blizzard also turned vikings, a clear Caucasian inspired race into brutes.
No you can’t. we have Thrall(and to a lesser degree Vol’jin) take up a neutral based characters who were in the spotlight for an expansion.
I thought you meant Draka was not a noble savage and that Thrall was. The point is both of them are. Thrall being a shaman or warrior does not negate that.
What was this then?
We’re also sidestepping the invader and aggressor bit.
In a Warfront where the Horde player was made to appear as though they won nearly every time they entered it, where the win was confirmed by a developer comment and a lackluster cinematic.
Getting Darkshore back is nice I guess, if you’re retaining this, but your scenario only changes here in that instead of losing three zones and getting one back, we’re losing two zones and getting one back. So we’re still very much in the same box, you just removed the tragedy angle.
Is it technically incrementally better? Yes, but the retcon still renders the same kinds of damage as the original, and to both sides in an incrementally less-painful way.
Edit:
- Alliance still sieges Lordaeron and Forsaken are pushed out
Just saw this, how is this fair to the Forsaken?
Um … Then where will the Darkshore front be if the Horde is driven out right away?
Well, that, and the core topic tends to get undermined by conflicting agendas. I mean, we resolved ages ago that there was no real way to redeem the Horde, at least not through some “grand acts” or “gestures”. Even if Thrall gives Sylvie to Tyrande alive (which is the preferred resolution to the raid) … it wont change anything. Which is why fairly “quickly” the goal switched from “Redemption” as a tangible objective to pursue, to redemption merely being a prospective byproduct of “Rebuilding”. If it happens, it happens.
But, BfA was such a contentious topic, even if that is the most practical and realistic solution given this two factin game … its not “emotionally” proper. So, you end up with these demands for further restitution/vengeance from the Alliance party, which always is laced with dumping more of the burden-of-cost of BfA on the Horde players shoulders, it devolves into these sort of circular pissing matches. With the Alliance side and Horde side having grievances, solutions, and objectives that contradict one another.
EDIT: As an example of this. The Horde Players (on this sub at least) want ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with PvP being supported on a story level or the Faction Conflict anymore. 5+ years of horrific villain batting, surrounded by 6 of deep neglect, have laced those story threads with exclusively negative associations (deeply negative). BUT, in order to get their justice, revenge, reassert their power fantasy … the Alliance players need the Horde to be involved in those things to attain them. Thus, inherently competing agendas.
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Nah it’s useful cuz it centers economic dynamics. Your blog post isn’t an academic source and everyone disagrees so.
In what way is an ex-pirate community in a desert inspired by Middle Eastern people? What about the Wastewater Bandits is culturally similar to the Middle East?
Vol’jin was never the neutral character for any expansion. Thrall was the neutral character for one expansion ten years ago.
Draka isn’t a noble savage, Thrall is.
Noble Savage is not “person who talks about their heritage and is a warrior”.
??? If you’re invading from boats, and Night Elves are logically shooting at you, and you fire back with what boats have (canons), small fires are expected.
Horde remains the aggressor here, even though I’m partially to the “Lordaeron came first” theory, doesn’t matter.
No, I already said the Horde would be pushed back to current Ashenvale drama territory.
Justifies getting Sylvanas out of the picture, that still needs to happen for the Forsaken in game to want her out.
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I had a quite interesting conversation on these boards recently with a Horde player who was rather upset that Alliance players wouldn’t PVP with him (even if he was resistant to the reasons) who was also quite interested in discussing the lore. Are you sure that this is a Horde-wide position or mostly your position?
Because look, if you’re a PVE player, great. I’m not saying you should be forced into a PVP story - but that’s not the same thing as an assertion that the entire Horde doesn’t want that story, or doesn’t PVP.
Did you ask that player if he was motivated by (or paid attention to) the story in any way?
Because I wouldn’t doubt for a moment that there are players who enjoy the game-mechanic of PvP on its own. But beyond those few who exclusively define the Horde Faction by it being anti-Blue team (and nothing else) … I haven’t seen any such pro-PvP arguments. Least of all on these subs. Were you on GD?
Eh, I know I’ve probably Faction Braining and I’m pulling this straight out of my rear, but this is how I’d imagine realm heroes would end up going.
Fel (if reintroduced) - Illidan’s already tucked away to be dusted off. While I wouldn’t call him an alliance character, all of his history is wrapped up in his race. I don’t think anybody else on either faction can fill his shoes.
Light - Anduin and Velen most likely. Turalyon maybe, but since he’s only an allied race leader, he seems kinda secondary to me, but he is still a legacy character. Maybe tied with Liadrin, but both would be competing with the first two.
Shadow - I think Alleria’s the only high-tier character that can even fit this role.
Death - Bolvar, as you said. If BFA hadn’t happened, maybe Sylvanas could have had some time to shine here, but alas.
Life - Malfurion and/or Tyrande, definitely. This may even be the endgame goal of her having gotten Night Warrior powers to begin with. Hamuul could get a cameo but he’s always been secondary at best, and doesn’t have the name recognition of the two nelves.
Order - Khadgar’s spent enough time in vacation for him to be reused. Jaina maybe, but I still think Khadgar’s a more amicable pick. People seemed to take to him well, even if he started getting a bit “old,” so to speak.
This looks like a “No True Horde” argument to me. He was here, in these (story) forums, definitely talking about story. I’d say he was interested.
To Baal,
Thank you for clarifying the fires bit. But so long as we’re talking about retconning (with my objections to that still noted), let me offer an alternative.
First, the Alliance tries to go after Lordaeron first. Azerite is popping up all over the world, and there are rumors coming out of Undercity that the laboratories there are working with the material in a bid to make a new weapon for use against the Alliance: new plague delivery machines, devastating weapons, all at the warchief’s behest. Genn convinces Anduin that he needs to strike now, and he heeds Genn’s advice for a sneak-amphibious attack. The Horde could detect a march through Silverpine, but surely not an improbable seaborne strike.
Only Sylvanas does anticipate it, being able to move a great deal of the Horde’s forces to the defense of the capital - and the Alliance offensive is thrown back with Saurfang emerging as the successful strategist responsible for the defense. It is, however, not without cost, as Sylvanas clandestinely orders the use of blight, and raises undead from the dead of both sides. Sylvanas justifies this in her usual way, but it arouses suspicions in the Orcish general.
A retaliatory strike against the Night Elves in Ashenvale is then attempted. Sylvanas’s reasoning to Saurfang on this matter is that they present a dagger to the Horde’s throat in a time of war. Saurfang argues back that the casualties could be horrific - and he’s right. The Horde manages to make initial success in Ashenvale, pushing to Astraanar and taking the city over before a decapitation strike nearly succeeds in taking out Saurfang. At this point, he is forced to order a retreat as combined Worgen, Draenic, and Night Elven reinforcements begin to stream into the area. Saurfang orders the fortification of the borders. He and Baine privately question why Sylvanas would order such an attack.
BFA continues as normal. As it does, Derekgate takes place, and we learn that Sylvanas let slip the rumors that goaded the Alliance into attacking in the first place. She knew about the attack, wanted the attack to happen, and set a trap for it. Clandestine meetings begin to take place between Baine, Saurfang, and the Alliance. Sylvanas’s spies catch on to these quickly, resulting in Baine’s capture as Saurfang slips out to warn Thrall of designs on his life. Does he understand what Sylvanas’s angle here is? No, but her operatives are after him before he has a chance to put the pieces together.
Ashenvale warfront replaces Darkshore warfront. The Alliance meanwhile lose the Arathi Warfront. The rest of BFA proceeds as normal.
The citizens of Orgrimmar are surprised that Saurfang and Baine are marching on their capitol. Since Saurfang and Baine were chased out, along with those loyal to them, the Horde’s ability to hold its fronts has been buckling, and Saurfang is quickly seen as a traitor-like figure for it. Sylvanas meanwhile presents herself as a savior of the Horde, ignoring or silencing rumors that she’s wasting the lives of Horde soldiers in costly campaigns. Saurfang declares Mak’gorah, Sylvanas lets slip that she believes the Horde is nothing - we move into Shadowlands.
There, there’s your rewrite.
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Ahh, got it, so I was right on the money when I asked that question. The “Mysterious Token Horde” player that you were discussing things with wasn’t arguing from a story position, but a gameplay one. And yes, as a Horde PvPer I’m sure it would be frustrating with the long Queue times for the Alliance.
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Story and gameplay do not conflict with each other. Or at least they shouldn’t. Get this idea out of your head.
He was in a rather bellicose manner arguing however that the story should have motivated me to fight him. I explained to him why this wasn’t the case. He got upset and called me a doomer.
I could link the thread if you’d like. Like I said, it is in the story forums, not GD.
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It literally does not especially considering Australia and New Zealand are not in the “North”. The post may not be an academic paper but it explains in clear term why it is such a horrible term(not to mention the Global South may be a popular term but it doesn’t mean it is the standard/not without its own problematic connotation!)
Black skins, the use of middle eastern inspired garbs, the use of camels/caravans and the use of “Caliph” to describe their leader or the use of Zahra, a middle eastern name.
I must have been imagining him giving me quests in Zul’Garub and Zul’aman.
Draka is an orc(which have always been call noble savages by Blizzard themselves) having orcish mannerism. Which include her penchant for wild if not ouright violent activies.
Yeah “Cosmic War”-wise, Horde has nobody
Literally nobody
And every opportunity to develop somebody isn’t taken
- Because Thrall is a Shaman, i.e. Elements + Death, and Elements isn’t a Cosmic Force, and Death aspect of Shamanism was ignored for Shadowlands.
- Baine’s development as someone who could communicate with World Souls (Order) or Nature (Life) never came to pass.
- Gazlowe, Lorthemar, etc are all non-magical, tied to no cosmic force.
- Liadrin is a C-list Paladin narratively, Aponi Brightmane too.
- Hamuul Runetotem is never centered, not even in Valsharah during Legion with the Druid questline.
- Natalie Seline was made a Human rather than a Forsaken, so no Void
- AU/MU Shadowmoon have nobody left, so no Void there either
- Rommath and Thalyssra are never shown to be better mages or even equal mages to Khadgar and Jaina
- No Forsaken development all of Shadowlands and no Sylvanas anymore means no Death ties otherwise
Only saving grace is Loa’jin, who is TBD.
Sure this works too. Think it still requires Undercity to be lost to the Horde to drive home Sylvanas bad, and I still think Saurfang needs to die narratively, but it works.
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Saurfang would die narratively, but I don’t like the idea of making the Forsaken give up their capital - especially if they’re being singled out.
I also, frankly don’t like the idea of villain-batting their leader, but if we simply must do that because we simply must have Shadowlands, this allows us to remove Sylvanas without having to destroy the Undercity or Brill. (Brill will live)
Sounds like a great source of story potential that “doomer bro”. And you’re right, gameplay and story are inherently linked to some degree. Which is why so many Horde posters on here are opposed to your PvP idea. Because nothing quite like pitting us up against our victims we’ve actively been shamed for attacking by the writing teams themselves (while being forced to attack them) for now 5+ years (while constantly whitewashing our opponents to a flawless shine) to get us on board with PvP and the Faction Conflict.
Its a great way to be like “You’re all wrong Horde fans. You don’t know what you want on this issue. I’m right. I know whats good for you”.
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Come on, Morgel was told the same thing.
No, I’m saying that you’re speaking solely from your perspective. I mentioned this individual to point out that you are one voice among many, and as I explained to you before - the proposal raised would have involved content that would have been optional to PVErs.
No one is forcing you to go into Warsong Gulch or do quests around it.