It’s a nice touch but I can’t help but be annoyed that they don’t appear anywhere but on that model.
1 Like
Zahir beat me to it. I’m not the one pursuing absolute maximalism for the benefit of one faction, and I’m on record all of the time for wanting to fix what I see as significant Horde issues.
You on the other hand have repeatedly refused to compromise in any respect.
Yes even when every Horde player tells you that what you think is a problem isn’t and refuse to address any of the problems Horde players agree upon lol
Eg that day you insisted MU Orcs should reclaim their Clan identity when every single Horde player in the thread told you it was a bad idea and you refused to listen to literally any of us
9 Likes
I asked you for your reasoning - most of you gave reasoning that didn’t make sense.
Listening is not the same thing as “accepting uncritically”.
The other issue here is that if someone proposes something you don’t like, you don’t lay out the issues, you just say it’s bad and treat it as a permanent scar. I was asking you questions and you were being needlessly toxic about the fact that I had questions in the first place.
Coming to mutually beneficial solutions does require that we step outside of our comfort zone somewhat, and work with those who are willing to do the same with us. Your entire attitude is frequently at odds with that - so is that of your colleagues.
… and it seems to me that this is because you don’t actually want to work with the other side here. It seems to me that it’s because you just want to have your way - screw what anyone else thinks.
To you. To literally all of us it did.
“Am I out of touch with the Horde playerbase? No it is the Horde posters that are wrong!”
I answered every question you had, you just petulantly rejected everyone’s reasons and insisted you had the best idea and were right.
5 Likes
Well, to be honest, it is not possible to find an agreement, because the horde is not a grey mass and everyone has different interests, considers other things important, it is not without reason almost impossible to respond to everyone as an individual.
1 Like
No, I’m afraid that’s not how it went.
You failed to make connections that I was asking you to explain, you were pissed off that I had the question at all and that I didn’t already “know”. Eventually I did get my answer, but it was from another Horde poster who actually laid out the issues and made it clear to me - not from you.
Unfortunately, this is a pattern with you, and for others who are more concerned with making sure your side “gets theirs” to the exclusion of everyone else.
It is, you can go back and reread all your responses to every single Horde player.
Even the person who “made it clear to you”.
1 Like
I think this is why your interactions with Horde players always fall short, Kyalin. I was trying to point this out before in the Horde Redemption thread - your perspective coming into these arguments is that your narrative injury is worse than the Horde’s narrative injury and thus you are “owed” something. I and others have tried to explain many times that we reject this line of thinking because we feel the Horde was injured plenty in BfA and what you ask for feels like a very specifically constructed additional injury.
As long as you hold the mindset that you had it worse and are thus “owed”, basically any proposal that stems from this is doomed to failure.
19 Likes
But he doesn’t want anything to do with the faction war. So your just having him foot the bill as well and be involved in something he doesn’t want.
But he’s already said your solution isn’t satisfying for his side. So the supposed intent isn’t fulfilled.
You’re wanting the other to compromise on their desires and ‘inflict pain’ on other players that aren’t interested.
He doesn’t want to bare the cost of your resolution. You want him to be involved in said story.
7 Likes
Your description of my perspective is wrong. I argue that our problems are different, and require different solutions. I normally try to avoid commentary on magnitude as I find it pointless - the exceptions being when I need to explain factors like media presentation, which often get left out in bids to say that nothing is wrong and that nothing should be fixed.
I’m going to also point out that this often surfaces as a harmful distraction. I can’t tell you how many times I have myself or have watched another poster say nothing more than “this is an issue for Night Elves”, while making no comparative points before a Horde poster sweeps in and accuses that person of asserting that their issues are worse or something. This is an argument that I and others frequently do not prompt. The other side however, does this all of the time.
Kyalin, you constantly frame the approach of Horde players you disagree with as wanting to “protect gains”. That you’ve “already paid” for your side of the conflict. Even as you say my description of your perspective is wrong, it constantly leaks out in half a dozen little details like that.
This is just in your most recent posts in this very thread - the point I am making is that most Horde players are trying to tell you that we agree everyone got screwed, in different ways, and all the scorekeeping that has gone on over the past two years has yielded literally nothing, so let’s just call it zero on both sides and progress forward as best we can, however that might be.
Your perspective still appears to be that the Horde owes you, and again - as long as you are bringing this transactional approach to the discussion, you are going to be pushed back against by Horde players who have lost quite a lot - just not in the same way as you have. I know you have spent a lot of time trying to quantify why you think your losses are larger and thus validate this viewpoint.
17 Likes
Actually, if Horde’s espoused “Honor” that they advertises applies only when they like then it isn’t honor, its just what is convenient.
The problem is Horde characters keeps saying “we are honourable warriors who don’t kill the defenseless civilians!”
Meanwhile “insert Alliance tragedy in the background”.
You see the problem?
Part of my argument has been and will continue to be that the position of these Horde posters - that they can just move on from BFA without actually resolving the issues - isn’t going to work. This is going to continue to be a stain on the Horde until it is addressed. Nothing will make it go away, especially if you do nothing to resolve the outstanding wounds.
As for the gains that they want to lock in - yes, it very much looks that way when people categorically and flatly reject every solution proposed to give the Night Elves an onscreen win in Ashenvale. One of the bigger issues that I have my finger on is that people seem to be upset not because they brutalized and victimized an entire playable race, but that they were made to feel bad about it. I have issues with how Blizzard approached this, but I also have issues with the selfish mindset that regards that as the ONLY issue that needs to be resolved.
I mean, thank you for proving my point, I suppose.
11 Likes
I’m afraid it didn’t.
When Horde players want to solve their issue in a manner that excludes the resolution of others, yes, they are being selfish and elevating their problems above those of other players. I can respect that they have issues while at the same time pointing out that many of them still appear to want to retain the benefits that having those issues gave to them.
It would be a similar thing if I constantly argued that I wanted the Alliance to maintain and keep the high ground, while also getting dramatic victories against the Horde - something that I don’t do because I recognize the need for compromise. Unfortunately that recognition is usually not one shared by the other side of this conversation.
I don’t think its fair for Horde players to say Alliance players have to accept the forgive and move on message because it benefits them.
Its not fair to say Horde fans can ask for their concerns to be addressed but alliance can’t and so there will be pushbacks.
1 Like
I don’t think it’s fair for alliance players to demand sweeping accommodations in the story to address their victim mentality and demand the entire story cater around what they and only they want when the story already goes out it it’s way to whitewash anything bad the alliance does, but here we are.
6 Likes
The problem is there are irreconcilable desires. The Horde don’t feel benefitted and if it goes on further, they’ll feel further in the hole. Then they’ll want the scales rebalanced even more.
If one person wants faction war and the other doesn’t, they’re both trying to put their desire over the other. Someone will ultimately suffer from the other person’s solution.
10 Likes
I dub thee the new Erevien.
His sub will run out again eventually on his second account.
You have big shoes to fill.