I don’t think the Forsaken lost the way to repopulate ‘period’, I think they lost the way to repopulate in mass quantities (val’kyr), but can still animate via necromancy. The only thing that truly defines the Forsaken is a political alignment, with independent thought whilst in undeath, as well as the mindless state they can succumb to in time. Newer generations might or might not suffer from the mindless state, no one has any way to know for sure.
I don’t think the Forsaken have lost more than the Night Elves. Perhaps in identity, in that they went from being a society that was splintered in measures of personal philosophies of life and religion, to a monolith that burn books and deny history (which they weren’t, prior to BtS), with but a few outliers that think otherwise.
I will say though, they do absolutely nothing to really sell the loss of Lordaeron. Even if Sylvanas was successful in doing a cut and burn maneuver and managed to scour the attacking army to its foundation, in so doing denying them the ability to occupy that territory, no-one seems to care that it was a fortress that was just sacrificed to prevent it from falling into enemy hands. It seems like such a non-issue, in contrast to the burning of Teldrassil.
The NPCs circle around Teldrassil and at times never shut up about it, but we can’t get any NPCs to actually care about Lordaeron, save for the refugees sitting around campfires.
I wish the kaldorei death knights could play some role in the future. Maybe with Bolvar or something, Calia trying to help the Forsaken night elves, and Tyrande’s visit into the afterlife.
By the way, I am surprised that Ion said Calia will not be joining the Horde…so I guess she isn’t their faction leader after all?
He didn’t really say that she won’t join the horde?
" This is a complicated issue. Calia is very sympathetic towards the situation and condition of the Forsaken, but she will not join the Horde because of this. Additionally, the number of Forsaken who may welcome their presence is not fixed."
Doesn’t this kind of imply that she could join the horde for other reasons than that?
In comparison how do the races functionally differ all that much?
The Orcs seem to largely chill because Thrall said to. Then largely have zero chill because Garrosh said to. The Darkspear revolt because Vol’Jin did then, well they didn’t all die per say when he did but Rohkan and Zenkan are about all they got. Not sure what they say about the Darkspear’s future plans though.
As for the Forsaken - yeah you don’t really question much in Stormheim. You’re attacked by Worgen, fight them for a bit, go look for Slyvanas, get dragged into local Vyrkul stuff, find Slyvanas during that, she’s like ‘Oh, sweet, Champion watch my back plz’. You say yes without question as that’s how quests work. I’m not sure where you’d fit in some doubt there.
As for RAS - the new plague is a directive by Windrunner and I’m sure she helped organize the society. But I always figured it came more of Forsaken playing around with Scourge tech than her order. At any rate characters like Calder Gray seem to have a passion for combat taxidermy because it’s his passion. Doesn’t invoke the Banshee Queen he’s just having fun finding new ways to bring the people of the world together- one hastily stitched on limb at a time.
We’ve actually had a number of Orcs representing different thoughts, not just Thrall. Eitrigg, Saurfang, Drek’thar, Nazgrim, and even a lot of side and one-off Orcs from various quests and storylines. Even Orc peons get their own time to express their thoughts, and will do so again in the Vulpera recruitment quest, for example.
Individual Darkspear are far less prevalent, at least I know less of them, I will admit, but even there we have examples like Zen’tabra who stood her own separate from Vol’jin or Rokhan.
Even your example of Calder Gray doesn’t have anything to do with the Forsaken’s future. Just rather his own amusement.
The goal of the Forsaken seemed to very much be secure Lordaeron. By whatever means necessary. How much of this was directly Windrunner and Windrunner alone is pretty debatable.
There are clearly Forsaken that have some lingering civic pride from their living life. Somebody was maintaining that memorial to Terenas Menethil in Lordaeron. And beyond that I’d imagine having a kingdom of the living dead would just strike many Forsaken as a good idea. And yeah you’ll need more undead to shore up those borders.
There didn’t seem much outside of that as a plan and nor did there need to be. The Eastern Kingdoms have plenty of territories that’ll remain eternally disputed.
That’s what bugged me about BtS. I’d assume a Forsaken wouldn’t want to live in Stormwind for the same reason a human wouldnt want to live in the Undercity. What a live and undead person need and want in terms of habitation and quality of life are vastly different. Even if every Live Stormwindian/Undead Lordaeronian was cool with the other living within their borders - I doubt they’re going to enjoy themselves for long.
But apparently that was something just never allowed. Guess Hearthglen, which is just up the road from Andorhal, where all the playable races live in peace and common purpose, was top secret knowledge no Forsaken could ever know of.
The Forsaken did not once state this to be their goal in BfA after losing Lordaeron. In fact, the few Forsaken we do get lines from spend them making fun of another Forsaken that misses his garden in Lordaeron.
Seems those were living survivors of Lordaeron that came back to make that memorial.
Going to need a citation on that second point. It seems extremely unlikely to me that human survivors quietly built that while it was swarming with Scourge. Or snuck in while it was Forsaken controlled and made a vigil complete with an engraving with no one noticing. And even if that is the case - the Forsaken liked it enough to leave it intact. It’s at the entrance to the Undercity anyone could’ve desecrated it in passing if they wanted.
As for that note we’ve Forsaken refugees that decry the living conditions of Orgrimmar. It’s hot and dry and bright and there’s nowhere to do mad science. But that’s kinda been my biggest grievance here - we have zero development.
The Forsaken capitol is destroyed, it’s denizens are tempest tossed and now abandoned and the only story so far is those same Forsaken refugees reacting to the Dark Lady leaving with surprising indifference.
And the only story we know we’re getting next is a chat with Calia. Not about the Forsaken’s future or plight. But how sad Derek is and how ‘Hey you know these Undead Nelves are also quite sad. My only character trait in this expansion has been counseling the newly risen but hey Naaru Necromanc’d Lady what do you think about it?’.
Blizz tore down the Forsaken basically to their foundation and doesn’t look to be trying to build anything to replace it.
Q: Terenas Tomb in Lordaeron. Who built that? Was it the Forsaken, or the Silver Hand?
CDev Response: The tomb of King Terenas Menethil II was not built by Lordaeron’s current residents or the Silver Hand; the tomb was crafted by the ruined city’s former citizens. Great were the deeds of Lordaeron’s last true king, and his people risked everything to ensure that his memory would not be forgotten.
This was my point, yes.
Blizzard never wrote the Forsaken as having a foundation beyond Sylvanas to begin with. Hell, the playable Forsaken we see in WoW didn’t even exist in Warcraft III. And still don’t in Reforged.
Again - Forsaken clearly liked it enough to leave it up. And I’m very confused how they don’t count as said citizens when in EoT,
" “The Gilneans cower behind their high stone walls,” the warchief called out, his deep voice booming over the din of rain and thunder. "You, citizens of Lordaeron, you know their history. When their human allies needed them, what did they do? They walled up and hid. "
Swords clanged against shields. Not all Forsaken clung to their living memories, but those who did held no love for the kingdom that had turned its back to the world in its most desperate hours"
Nope no attachment to Lordaeron there. They’re just comfortable being addressed as Lordaeronian citizens and can be rallied by the memory of a nation that stood idle in Lordaeron’s darkest hour.
It’s one of those weird things that shifts back and forth based on context and convenience. In moments like that and others, suddenly the Forsakens origins in Lordaeron becomes relevant, but in other contexts it’s completely ignored.
I believe Benedikt was talking about the fact that the area is kept clean and the tomb is constantly surrounded by little candles. Whoever actually built the memorial, the Forsaken who live in Undercity must be the ones to keep it looking nice.
ETA: Y’know, it occurs to me … some of the builders of that tomb might still be living in Undercity (well, up to the start of BfA) as undead. Even if they were alive when they actually built it, they might be undead now.
They’re not really acting period. Nathanos and Voss are the only Forsaken characters you interact with at any length. Of the two Nathanos is following Windrunner’s order to the letter and Voss is 'I ain’t so sure about this’ing.
I’ve no idea what Forsakens think about Darkshore. I’d suspect they’d find it weird they were a world away from anything familiar, fighting tooth and nail against a foe they’ve no personal beef with over land I imagine most of them have never seen or even knew of before.
But of course that never made sense at all. Blizz just wanted their WC3 flashback and it had to be Alliance V Horde and Nelf V Scourge.
This is what I mean by just being straight villains. Of course the Alliance won both warfronts. Stromgarde, of vital importance to the humans, means nothing to an Orc. Second verse same as the first with Nelves, Forsaken and Darkshore.
It doesn’t even make thematic sense. WSG, iconic Battleground, in art and set dressing clearly shows Orcs and Nelves clashing around Ashenvale. Ditto with Forsaken and Humans in Arathi Basin. Were the marching orders given out on opposite day?
Because if the Forsaken we’re fighting for the only easily occupied port city in the northern kingdoms after losing their own home - well wow you might feel bad about having to kill them. They’re not being pointless evil dicks they have a stake in this fight. Same with Orcs in Darkshore - of course they’re trying to drive the Nelves into the sea. They’re really angry now and doing so would mean peace on their northern border for generations.
And my point is that they’re not really mindlessly following orders in a way greater than any other race. Do the human soldiers give detailed opinions on why they fight or is it just King’s Honor, Friend?
The Forsaken don’t get to have pathos this expansion. I guess Faol and Felstorm used up Blizz’s reserves of it in Legion. Voss gets some drops of it but that’s all.
We have had range of Humans, yes, from Captain Heller to Taylor to Rogers, and even in Kul’Tiras we had Flynn, Talia, and Cyrus on top of the Proudmoore family.
People are not wrong when they say the Forsaken have no developed characters. However it’s not really a matter of them having lost their story because Sylvanas left them. It’s that they were never given story without her to begin with.
Well as I noted we are on occassion. Silverpine, Hillsbrad, Arathi and WPL are all about expanding, defending and holding Lordaeron.
From Tirisfal onwards there’s a ‘No longer will we cower in human ruins! Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken and will be reborn in our image’ vibe to it.
But then BTS rolls around and;
‘Lordaeron wasn’t important. An undead kingdom wasn’t important either. There I just said Windrunner burnt the books how would you even know about Lordaeron*. You either live and die for the Banshee queen or you want to die or you want to live in Stormwind with your second cousin or whatever’.
*Seriously the book burning- like the usual goal of that is to attempt to erase a history. But the Forsaken are literally the only people who don’t have to even consider teaching a next generation about history. I swear to God they just went ‘Hrmm. What’s a thing scary regimes and groups do? Oh! Book burnings. That’ll drive the point home. Not like we’re doing this for the one race with a no eyes option for whom books would be of extremely limited value for anyway’.
Night elves lost Teldrassil, Darkshore and Ashenvale. They also lost their civilian population, the forsaken civilians were evacuated before the war started. Night elves even lose their own dead to the forsaken. To suggest the forsaken loses were anywhere near the same as the night elf losses is poor trolling. Additionally Sylvanas isn’t dead so you didn’t lose her either.