Alliance side your going to want kings so your going to have a ret
and if the paladins Ret he might as well keep up wisdom judgement for dps casters. you dont need to justify a “single” Ret in a 40 man raid, and trying to argue the contrary is being purposely obtuse.
This isnt new and has been tried before. It’s mediocre in MC then falls off a cliff. Enjoy your time in the sunshine, seriously. It ends abruptly.
Warriors are at a level of OPness in this patch that rival that of S5 DKS bro ham.
From what I remember you spend more time fighting trash than bosses so if you are only farming them for bosses you are even worse overall than boss parses would indicate.
This… doesn’t mean jack-crap about Warrior tuning being what it was during Classic. Warriors in 1.1 were capable of obscene damage. Full stop.
wrong. you have a holy paladin that specs in enough to grab kings and still heals for every fight.
These raids are tuned for conditions such as multiple oeople DCing during the fight, and at least one or two rtards going afk to take a shower or let the dog out.
Epeen was reserved for guilds who min/maxed. Only spazzes take epeen in a 15 year old game seriously.
Fun > Minmax
Imp devo is like 184 armor. In grand scheme of things, that’s almost nothing.
JoW is entirely unnecessary as of current content. JoL, however, is useful in places. Really no reason to not use Sanc or JotC unless asked to do so, which I’m sure he(and any good ret) gladly would if the RL deemed it necessary.
Ehh…AP only increases white hit damage. A lot of the plate gear pure AP would want is also much better used on warriors(chromatic boots, for example - BiS forever for fury, not so much for ret.)
Meanwhile, both SoC and SoR(as well as their respective judgements) scale with SP. As such, prioritizing even some SP - not even necessarily going full spelladin, say more of a hybrid - means much less gear competition, in addition to both scaling on your white hits as well as yellow hits. Things like Choker of the Firelord are great for casters, but BiS forever for any ret build interested in spellpower.
In this sense, it’s all about factoring in what benefits the raid most. Avoids loot drama and actually gives use to items that would otherwise be sharded/used only for PvP(such as T2.) Granted, 2handers have always been funneled to rets on Alliance anyways.
I will agree with one thing about sanc aura, though; it’s not necessarily ret’s best damaging aura unless they have enough SP. That honor instead goes to ret aura(mostly on AoE pulls/fast attacking mobs), but you won’t see many running it because the damage it does is attributed to the tank getting hit as opposed to them.
This makes them look even worse on meters, therefor worse in the eyes of players who don’t know any better even if they really aren’t. This is a player issue, though, as opposed to mechanical one. It compels rets to go all out and boost their personal damage as much as possible, even if it does not contribute as much to total raid throughput.
Not trying to be argumentative, as I fully encourage those playing ret to utilize as much of their toolkit as the party/raid needs, but I am trying to reveal some context.
No.
He’s not using Devo at all.
Imp Devo is 921 AC to every tank in a tank group. When you enter MC that’s well over a 10% AC boost. That boost is felt from every healer.
I’m aware of this, considering I formulated the first coefficient list in Vanilla for Paladins.
10% SoR 1 hander.
12.5 % SoR 2 hander.
50% JoR.
Those numbers do NOT compete with classes that ramp up at higher coefficients, ie 100%, nor does that account for the fact that those same classes get +100 damage on a crit.
Guilds gear up players not just for current content but also for utility and scaling in later content, when fights become more difficult and their duration increases.
JoW nearly doubles the value of Imp BoW, and is felt raid wide, that is a huge gain in mana regeneration. You may not need it now, but you will later…hence the lack of scaling point I made.
Imp BoM is +37 AP that is felt raid wide. Most Holy Paladins take Benediction so they can actually farm what they need to raid so its not incredible tedious in doing so. Having a Ret alleviates that problem.
Imp Dev and JoW were two of that factors that I listed the other 2 are Imp LoH and Imp BoM.
Having every Holy Paladin and every Ret Paladin with those talents, means Imp LoH can be utilized every fight.
Rets bring:
Imp BoM
Imp Devo
JoW
Imp LoH
The additional problem that pertains to scaling is that he is splitting the effectiveness of gear between melee and spell and that will be felt later when gear becomes more role specific.
Ie having a Lionheart helm is a great piece of gear, however its only applying to a small part of your damage…and the spell power portion, which is the bulk of your damage, receives little from it and your spell damage won’t scale.
Even full Judgment is 200 spell power and + 60 to 66 to a JoR. Shockadins work for grinding faction and farming cash solo. But raid wide damage falls short once your looting more in MC.
By BWL Spelladins are a pointless excercise.
If you want to use it now and have fun with it by all means enjoy.
But It wont scale because gear won’t support it later and your spreading armor and weapon bonuses between spell and melee coefficients.
Depending on where your current Armor is, you’re looking at ~1% increase in damage reduction from that amount, and that’s if you’re already at 12k Armor. If you’re closer to 8k, that gain is more around 1.3%.
And in this case… the entire Devotion Aura is going to be ~6.5% reduced damage for the 7k-ish geared Tanks and ~5% for the 11.5k-ish geared Tanks.
That’s definitely going to be felt.
Well, of course. The point here is that spelladins have better throughput than typical AP ret.
Spelladin doesn’t really take anything from MC. There’s a couple pieces, but most of its big upgrades come from BWL in the the form of T2.
JoW would no doubt be used later, sure, but using when it isn’t needed is unnecessary.
Imp BoM will likely be covered by at least 1 paladin in the raid. That doesn’t necessarily mean it will be the ret, given how early it is in the ret tree that any paladin could grab it. Rets will also take benediction as it helps their uptime - furthermore, a ret taking imp BoM can’t take imp LoH, and even further to that, LoH drain’s all the paladin’s mana, meaning unless the ret has a pot or rune to follow up right after using it, they’re unable to do anything else until they regen enough mana.
A holy paladin having to farm a bit outside of raid isn’t what I’d call a good justification for not having imp BoM, when they can utilize it at a much less taxing rate than a retadin. Imp BoM, ironic as it is, is not a good choice for a retadin as it is for a dedicated healer. The reason is because ret really needs to spec a little into the prot tree for precision, so it has more stat room for throughput-increasing stats.
Sure they can take it if really needed, but a ret played in the fashion you suggest will not have the mana pool to even fulfill it until T2.5 - AP ret would not want T2, as they’d want as much crit and AP as possible, eschewing int almost entirely.
As for gearing becoming more role specific as time goes on, in this case it is the opposite, thus is the whole point of using T2 - it has hybrid stats of SP, int, and AP. As is the case with all but one paladin class set, it is the exact opposite of specialized, and is specifically tailored to melee spelldamage.
Hybrid, at the moment, doesn’t really work because T2 isn’t out yet, and it needs a minimum of around 150sp. Better for anyone looking to play hybrid just to gear as AP right now, or go full SP.
This goes back to the whole gist of spelladin, why it uses MCP and very fast weapons when not - it’s all about attack speed. Given that the individual hits of SoR do not scale much, the solution is to get as many hits as possible. Several key parts of what makes spelladin work aren’t even in phase 1 - the major pieces are in BWL with T2 and scrolls of light. It’s also why hybrid is still in theory rather than fact - the gear doesn’t yet exist for it to be tried.
As an aside, hybrid may not be interested in the 8 piece at all, because it does not scale.
I would not say spelladins are pointless by BWL, but quite the opposite. I’d wager they’d do a whole lot better than a pure AP ret, and not slow the gearing process down as much as a ret that takes gear better served on fury warriors.
https classic wowhead com/talent-calc/paladin/5050012-503-55201051200315
Imp BoM
Imp LoH
Imp Dev
JoW
Thats a raid build. You can move 1 Deflection and 2 Pursuit to what you want early in the tree, but thats the Full Ret Support Build.
Prots won’t take it, they mostly use 3 trees and need Benediction and don’t have the talents to spare.
Holy won’t take it unless they have to, they also want Benediction to grind raid supplies and faction.
Rets take it because with a non Spelladin build there is nothing else to take that adds raid utility or personal damage:
There is nothing else in the tree usable in a raid to reach deeper in the tree.
Vindication leaves a debuff on the boss which is capped at 16 debuffs.
Eye for an Eye serves no PvE purpose.
Ret Aura won’t be used…you will be in the tank group and using Imp Dev.
Improved JotC is an anemic value…and you should NOT be using it over JoW.
Right now is the only time it works.
Even in full Judgement:
200 +spell damage
+63 to Judgement
~100 additional +spell damage from offslot pieces.
JotC +140
Thats +150 spell damage gain over what he’s using and +63 to a Judgement every 8s.
You will add ~20 damage to every JoR swing and +160 to every Judgement.
Thats it.
It simply doesn’t scale…because the means of delivering that spell damage doesn’t have a high enough coefficient and isn’t supplied often enough to make up for it. In addition by using an MCP, even though it is a gain, you give up +114 +spell damage by giving up Lok’amir with an enchant.
The above gains even include Talents and Sanctity Aura. That’s from the moment you enter MC until starting AQ.
Spell pushback prevention for HL and FoL is useless for a ret. They won’t be hard-casting heals as it interrupts the swing-timer: even less so if they go pure AP as they’ll get all of 1 or 2 casts of HL out before going OOM. That’s also ignoring the obvious that if someone in a DPS slot needs to heal in a raid environment, then your healers need to pick up the slack or are undergeared. Cleanses, blessings, and the like, however, should be used by a retadin as they are instant, cheap, and don’t interrupt swing timers.
Better of taking divine intellect for a little more uptime or, in spelladin’s case, imp SoR.
JotC. Hpals are better at judging JoW and JoL due to lasting judgement increasing its duration up to 40 seconds. They just have to apply it only once and whack the target or reapply every 40 seconds. There’s literally no reason for a retadin to be required to judge wisdom even when wisdom becomes necessary. Factor in any mechanics that take the paladin out of melee range, and ret isn’t the best choice for JoW unless they’re going full raid support in lawbringer and nightfall.
You’ll find that nearly every ret in a raid will be applying JotC unless specifically asked not to use it due to debuff limit, or if there isn’t another paladin to provide it(highly unlikely, as any paladin dedicated to purely healing will have lasting judgement.)
All of this is also banked on the idea that ret will always be in the tank group. Raid comps vary per guild. Naturally, your build decides where you’re placed, not the other way around.
Given that using MCP+scrolls+counterweight nearly doubles its attack speed and uses 2h SoR scaling, it blows Lok’amir out of the water. Again: spelladin is about attack speed over all else - the amount of attacks per minute make up for the low SP scaling. That’s why, when not using MCP, it uses flurry axe or blade of hanna rather than a slow weapon with a chunk of SP on it.
That’s the gist of spelladin; the quantity of attacks>the size of the hits. I can’t stress that enough. It also makes use of consecrate on ST, with the rank used depending on length of the fight, and has the mana pool to do so unlike full AP. Another thing to factor in are the consumables it uses, which also scale with SP(consumables are the lifeblood of any ret spec, really, and spelladin uses shadow oil with 56% SP scaling, dragonbreath chili with 100%, in addition to others.)
Keep in mind, this ain’t ever gonna be up there with the best DPS - no ret spec ever will, but I find it very difficult to believe pure AP will outscale it.
Full AP, on the other hand, has less of a mana pool to utilize utility abilities being emphasized in the first place. Talking little more than base mana pool, here, until T2.5. Such a build will go oom unless they only use R1 SoC, and only judge for wisdom…which would render their overall raid damage contribution significantly less than if they were to judge crusader, use sanc aura, use JoC(and have the mana pool to do so.)
In short, going full support while also going full AP is self-defeating; a support ret is the one wearing full T1 and swinging nightfall with SoR for double proc chance per swing, seal-twisting it with R1 SotC if they can pull it off.
If you wish, I can link you to the discord that theorycrafted it if you want to discuss it with people who know more about it than myself. It’s not the build I plan on playing for aesthetic/thematic reasons(I still love using a slow, chunky 2hander with SoC, which is why I’m going to test hybrid when my raid group gets around to it much later. Likely worse than spelladin, but likely better than pure AP.)
The content are so easy now you can bring any class to raid that including dps Disc priest. Hell in worst case scenario, you got ret/holy with 20 point in holy. You wear cloth and apply for a healer spot and roll on dps gear
Man, you really come off as a loser who has never had a friend. Let me tell you about my best friend. He is by far one of the worst priest healers I’ve ever grouped with. Want to know what else? I will not group with other healers. Want to know why? Because playing with my best friend, who is specced 100% meta btw, is more important to me than getting gear. Period. If that same friend wanted to be a Ret Paladin in any raid I was involved in he would be right next to me because I love that man more than my own brothers and him having fun doing something he likes is more important than a 1million% DPS increase. It’s honestly sad how uptight you are.
AP ret is still better.
Oh really now?
Ok but your friend would still be selfish and you would still be carrying him. You seem to be the uptight one since you are offended by simple truths.
JotC applies to Holy damage only.
JoC doubles when you can stun a mob…which on bosses you can’t
Sanctity Aura applies to SoC and JoC damage only.
They also apply to Consecration, however at 33% only over its 8s duration.
The reason why many Rets aren’t brought to raids is because if they completely focus on their own dps there is no reason to bring them.
Rets however are worth it if they bring their utility…which Spelladin does NOT.
No they won’t. A judgement that require melee proximity and 600 mana per minute to maintain is NOT what you want to be doing with your Holy Paladins.
600 mana was arrived at with Benediction in multiple boss parse samples, and it accounts for when you have to move or run out and have to refresh early to account for the mechanics.
Ie a Ret Paladin, by maintaining JoW, can save a Holy Paladin 6000 to 7200 healing per minute. Not alot now but it will be.
Ret Paladins will be using Rank 1 SoC coupled with Rank 1 JoC every 8s for Vengeance uptime. Mana isn’t an issue for Ret…there is literally nothing to use it on except Consecration.
Since you will be using Plate dps gear…without any shred of Intellect on it then 10% INT means very little.
Lok’amir was an example of what Shockadins use.
It was also an example that you will never be able to enchant your MCP with +30 spell damage.
Let me give you a list on scaling:
Chili proc rate won’t scale.
Shadow oil proc rate won’t scale.
Explosives won’t scale.
MCP won’t get any faster
MCP melee damage won’t scale
Even with full Judgement set your forced to use Rings, Trinkets, Cloak, and Neck to maintain +hit values…because Judgement doesn’t have any.
The +SP scaling is insufficient to maintain DPS levels.
You will gain +150 SP over what he is using, you will add +63 to your Judgement due to set bonus.
That’s all it will do from entering MC until you finally enter AQ40…and there is nothing in AQ to support the build in any appreciable way.
Between MC and BWL you will gain +100 total damage…while most DPS will double their damage…and you will bring NO utility.
Physical Rets do just over 50% of a Warriors DPS if they maintain their utility. Ie a Warrior doing 1k DPS by the end of BWL…then a Ret doing 500 to 550 DPS sans Sanctity Aura and JotC.
But the utility they bring is worth it. With Spelladin you will be doing the same damage as a traditional Ret by the end of BWL without any of the specs utility.
shockadin is holy caster spec
spelladin is ret speced that enhances his holy damage from judgements and procs.