The crusade against Raiders has to stop

I mean, no. If you dinged 120 in quest greens/blues, you’re not getting into a pug raid where the boss frequently nukes the room for more than your current max HP. What did you expect? At that point you’re contributing literally nothing but HP to the boss.

That said, yeah we do open the doors quite a bit once stuff is comfortably on farm. We ended up bringing several newbies, returners, and alts through 7/8 H last night.

To an extent. Stepping into Normal doesn’t really take more than Mythic 0 though, and that’s been updating with each tier along with all kinds of ways to do it. When Uldir came out, you killed Arathi rares for free 340 and you were good to go literally the same day.

The problem we’re running into isn’t that catch-up exists, it’s that it ends up obsoleting entire swaths of content. And it’s one thing to obsolete previous raid tiers, okay, they’ve had their six months of limelight. But there hasn’t been a reason to run Normal/Heroic dungeons since Mythic 0 and warfront dropped, and world gear scales high enough that there’s not really any reason to run current Normal raid either.

Mb, for some reason, I thought mythic was 455.

Still, point stands that gaps in ilvl are too large, and warforging/titanforging are largely the cause.

Agree, would prefer delete wf / tf byt then you also have to remove RNG sockets.

As for deleting normal mode, nah. I have ultra casual friends who do normal on friday sat, sometimes i go help them.

They are a great guild, but they struggle to kill heroic bosses and often dont get aotc.

Leave them their raid difficulty imo.

Well, that’s 100% true, but I think that’s always been the case. When they started making heroic dungeons for a challenge, it was the baby seed for Mythic Plus.

All these many difficulties for the same five-mans make no sense.

Do the regular dungeon…it should drop gear appropriate to endgame prep (like the blue dungeons of yore).

No other level of dungeon is needed, and trying to scale a gear system on four different difficulty levels of the same 5-man instance is absurd.

Nobody does the normal dungeon because it doesn’t offer enough XP to make it worth the time you spend in pugs. Questing is by far the faster option for getting to the end. That isn’t a gear level issue.

Nobody does the heroic dungeons because you can’t get queues for them and RNG from boss drops in dungeons is inefficient. It keeps you stalled between 120 and Mythics, and you have crafted gear, warfronts, and WQ. IF they have heroic, it should be a bridge to Mythic +, but it isn’t. Mythic 0 is the bridge to M+. Heroic is a useless difficulty and shouldn’t be there.

IMO, the normal dungeons should reward xp and gear on par with the elite quest rewards in the leveling chains. The problem with the normal dungeons right now is that they leveled out the zones. It no longer matters which zone you go to or which dungeons you enter. They’re all scaled the same way, and there’s a huge loss there. I mean, it’s more convenient for them to be scaled, but it was a loss.

There should be no heroic level dungeon. That needs to go.

Keep the Mythic 0 difficulty, with no timer and all the mechanics present, but call it “Heroic.” Have it drop gear that gets you into M+ and Warfronts.

Bob’s your uncle.

As to raiding, I don’t think World Quests or Emissaries are a problem. I just don’t. They don’t make anything obselete. They just provide alternative routes to the same place. I’m never going to WQ my way up if I can dungeon my way up…because I despise doing WQ’s. I despise being forced to do them for hours every day for achievements, so I certainly don’t volunteer for them in pursuit of gear rewards.

The normal raid is for preview, gear catch-up, and people who play at LFR levels of skill - but want organized groups rather than pugs. Normal raiding isn’t made obsolete by WQ and warfronts. It’s a difficulty that you can skip if you want to, much like LFR. That doesn’t make it obsolete. A lot of guilds have no desire to raid in normal. We skip it sometimes and run it sometimes. It depends on our mood at the start of a new season/tier. WQ and Warfronts don’t really play into that decision-making process.

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raiding is bad because the players doing them are self serving self entitled people. plus raiding is dumb and only reason most do them is because it is required.

That’s a very poor and narrow minded look at what raiding and the people that partake in them are about.

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No, raiding is fun.

Met all of us, have you? Actually, raiders are like every other population of humans. Some are nice. Some are nasty. Some are boring. Some are hysterically funny. Some are extremely kind and giving. Some are neurotic. See where I’m going?

I know lots of people who raid, and I raid with lots of them. They’re just people, and you’ve chosen to paint them all with a negative brush based on…what? General forums? A guild that raided and was unkind to you? You tried raiding and weren’t instantly good at it, so you “don’t like it?” I don’t know. What I do know is that these blanket negative character assessments are unkind and inaccurate.

I’m sorry you feel that way, but raiding is actually pretty complex once you get to the higher difficulties, and it requires an exhilarating level of communication and teamwork. We do it because it’s fun and challenging.

Well, I raid because it’s fun, and I would raid even if it gave no gear drops at all.

“Most” of whom? Do you mean most raiders? Most WoW players? I think what you’re saying is that most players (as in, the whole WoW population) only raid because raid content has recently been made a requirement for completing certain quest chains.

Yeah, kind of how I have to do World Quests and reputation grinds if I want the best gear for raiding. We all get pushed into doing content that isn’t our favorite because the devs want players to use ALL of the “stuff” they created for us.

But no. Most people who raid do it because they like it.

Strongly disagree… Yes people did all those things but as soon as they did they went on my ignore list. People who didn’t swiftly went on my friends list.

I met way more people and had a way bigger and better group of friends. Now I barely know anyone because I just pop into lfg for a wq and hop out once it’s done without ever saying a word.

Honestly the online community back then to now was virtually the same. Only back then the systems weren’t forgiving for jerks and your interactions mattered more.

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ITT meriweather says raids shouldn’t drop gear. XD

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lawl.

/ten char

tbh raiding should exist for those who like it. i only like to raid sometimes so i do it when i feel like it. personally i think raiders should always have the best gear tied with people who do high rated pvp. if benthic stopped at 410 and the effects couldn’t be used in the raid i think it would be better for everyone. but crap are some people thinking we should have BiS for WQ which is awkward for me.

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I’ve met far, far more self-serving entitled people in 5-man pugs this expansion than I have in any PVE raid I’ve ever been in outside of LFR.

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My horde alt is nearly 430 (dinged last week) and has two days played total. The gearing system is quite bad right now and totally undermines anyone’s commitment to raiding and lately every patch has been a complete power reset making paying for a sub nearly pointless if you enjoy raiding to have better gear than people doing world quests.

Speaking as a raider I’d say that’s not such a great reason to be doing it. But there is something to be said for the fact that raid gear is a means to an end, and when the “catch-up” is this extreme it greatly devalues raid gear even in that sense, and that devaluing it to the point that raid drops become near or outright downgrades feels really bad.

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I completely agree. This isn’t a situation that creates value for Raiders. It detracts from them and that’s not OK.

This truly does not help. It means that every patch needs a mechanic to get people into the newest content.

I believe this pits two lanes against each other. Without these systems and issues, casuals could have a lower ilvl progression system that takes time and feels good. Yes, group content would obviate it, but that’s ok.

The problem is that Blizzard wants all players to be able to access group content. So all content prior to that is catch up to that content. Then they remember that casuals exist, and have to make it last a long time with valid rewards for casuals. Except that devalues group content because world content already gets you to group content by design, so further progression is just no effort reward.

This, however, I don’t agree with. Raiding to feel superior is just an approach issue. Raid because you want to raid. Raid because you want the challenge.

If you want better gear than casual just so you can say you have better gear than casuals, then your issue is different. That’s an elitist issue, where you want to be sure you’re better than most people. That’s not something to value or celebrate or make systems for. It’s just divisive behavior for the sake of division.

Casuals should have a way to progress on their own, in their own lane. It doesn’t need to be raiding levels of progress, but it needs to feel meaningful. Lest you end up with no one to feel superior to, and you’re the bottom that’s crapped on because someone else wants to feel superior.

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Most iconic activity in the game… lol

Just add the normal and heroic to a lfr finder and be done with it.

Please post on him. I’d love to see it because I find this hard to believe.

If you heroic raid you’ll have higher loot than people doing wqs.

Not having catch up mechanics back in the day made for some other very real issues. There is no perfect system.

To be fair, most of those were because of attunements. Most raids have a handful of carryable bosses, and if guilds wanted to gear someone up quickly they could without much trouble – provided they could get in the door (which is no longer an issue).

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/us/area-52/mortaniûs and I have more gear as blood but im busy atm got raid in 15