The crusade against Raiders has to stop

Community General Discussion
666

It took me a minute to write this up, sorry:

As an example of what I’m talking about:

Imagine if over world had a gear source. This gear source could be upgraded with resources you acquire in the over world. This gear would be it’s own “class” with “Solo” appearing next to the item level, similar how “Heroic” or “Mythic” appears on gear.

Let’s say you loot, and then upgrade, one of these pieces. It would look like this:

[Helm of Many Examples]
Item Level 415 (445 Solo)
Main Stat (415)
Stamina (415)
Secondary Stats (415)
Equip Effect: [Insert useful world content effect.] (Scales up to 445)

The equip effect would only activate in the outside world. Effectively, the item is hard capped at 415, but you can give it “Solo Upgrades” which give it a passive effect that scales as you upgrade it.

So, the gear would always be 415 gear as far as people who raid or do dungeons are concerned. It never provides stats above 415, it’s never more useful in dungeons or raids than 415 gear. However, to people who solo, it would provide a continuous upgrade system. They could continue to improve that gear via the equip effect upgrades, without infringing on the actual stats portions of gear that would only matter in raids.

For example, one of the pieces of gear might say:

  • Equip: Increases your speed by 5%, while in the over world after killing an enemy that grants experience, for 5 seconds. (415)

but after you upgrade it:

  • Equip: Increases your speed by 15%, while in the over world after killing an enemy that grants experience, for 5 seconds. (445)

That would be the only thing that would change about the item itself as you upgraded, and the rest of the stats would remain unchanged.

Other effects might include:

  • Equip: Gain 3% critical strike during the day, or 3% haste during the evening.
  • Equip: You are harder to detect while standing still, and enemies will see you from a shorter distance. (Higher upgrade means higher “stealth”, but it’s never as good as actual stealth)
  • Equip: Your offensive spells and abilities have a chance to summon a random minor minion. (Deals more damage at higher upgrade levels)

So on and so forth. The idea would be to let players pick and choose the kinds of abilities they’d want in their over world play, and to upgrade them at their own pace, while not infringing on raid content or mythic dungeons, because these effects do not apply there.

2 Likes
667

Why am I not surprised it’s a human male paladin acting like a privileged tool?! Look mac,I raided since BC and stopped for a while due to circumstances that took higher priority during mid-late MoP but you don’t see me carrying a needless holier than thou God complex. One can be “competitive” without acting like a self important [insert hard c word here] wanting to gatekeep content from other players via one means after another [mostly via third party tools and spouting tripe from basement dwelling streamers]. It’s a friggin video game and in making everything more accessible,Blizzard did a good thing as it gives people more options to play,enjoy content and maybe try their hand at the scene without worry of arbitrary restrictions such as being in a guild which is hit or miss these days [and kinda obsolete too IMO],if in a guild worry about schedules that may not match your work schedule and commitment needs[which makes sense given some people have to work more than one job just to pay the bills and have a comfort or two],and with QoL features like LFR,a means to raid without worry of being denied over and over due to meta bias,said gate keeping tactics and potentially having a run sabotaged [should one form their own group as people do indeed try to make their own groups regardless of what some may believe.]

Even if there was an era where raiders were “kings/queens” [implying raiders were dudes only by saying kings FYI] it doesn’t mean they have to be worshipped like god and sure as Hell doesn’t mean they should have reign over who can and can’t progress in game and it by no means makes them a superior player,in some means. All it meant was they had a more fluid time schedule to play the game and commit to Tuesday-Thursday runs [popular raid times back then for those new to WoW] It also doesn’t mean casuals deserve this needless hostility,it’s this attitude that perpetuates the reputation hardcore raiders have as stingy,arrogant/self-important and just all around unlikable players who think their farts don’t stink. Yes,it’s a given there are raiders who aren’t walking feminine hygiene products but the crummy attitude you displayed in your post does not help their case and over time this era has changed for the better in many ways. QoL means there’s reason to put resources into raids as more people are being able to experience it rather than go to waste on a small [and very entitled] percentile who wanted to keep it as such for purpose of a vapid social hierarchy/high school mentality that should stay dead and gone. If it culls the elitists then I welcome even more QoL with open arms especially if it means people can enjoy a video game they paid for rather than have the best parts blocked off by those who want to keep the game as a wankfest for the alleged “uber leet” with a bad case of USI. [Unwarranted Self Importance]

/rant

Thank you all for coming to my TED talk :stuck_out_tongue: [seriously dude,stop being salty people actually wanna play all of the game they buy]

5 Likes
668

Seems like a lot of worlds for “I’m jealous of raiders and want the same rewards for not doing the content”. Did you consider that content was made acessible long ago with LFR, and normal dungeons that were made easier?

Giving more gear to people isn’t making more people do mythic raids or harder content, it just make them spend more time in the game doing mindless stuff like Blizzard want you too because people seem to have that obsession with gear even if they don’t want to do hard content.

It’s also one thing to disagree but you seem to have way too much salt/hate over guilds and people that actually enjoy raids, let people have their fun their way, you don’t like it then don’t do it.

2 Likes
669

I honestly don’t see the problem with LFR only dropping blues. A blue is exactly the kind of reward you deserve for doing something as simple as LFR difficulty.

670

I think it would make sense to allow LFR to access any raid difficulty, since there seems to be a sort of bias against players who don’t have an established guild.

What I mean is: If a ragtag group of individuals could come together for a legit mythic difficulty raid and clear it through LFR, why stop them?

Another way to put it: Why are guilds given essential loot prioritization?

If a group of non-guildies can do the job just as well, don’t they deserve the same reward?

Just saying.

671

This fine bovine woman gets it, Nyaria I agree with you wholeheartedly. My two copper is that nobody is immediately good at anything and we all at one point were scrubbier than a brillo pad. You prevail with a bit of practice when you can and boom eventually you go from zero to hero [or at least good at what you do] rather than say toxic crap such as “git gud or get out of my game” and various other forms of vitriol does nothing but shows poor sportsmanship. I’ve played soccer and other sports since I was a kid won some and lost some and even then,when I won against the other teams,I didn’t treat them like garbage.

When I said “good game” I meant it given boosted morale is the better approach to being competitive where someone being hateful,kicking them when their down and implying they’ll never amount to anything just makes the community look bad and makes that player in question look like a sore winner.Kept the same attitude when I played racing and fighting games against friends and strangers alike and still do when I play MMOs like WoW as that’s what community is about.

I’ve met some cool people in the raiding scene in my hayday before college and work ate up a good portion of my time and most of them played and progressed in raids because it was fun,not to
watch DPS meters to boost their ego or shame other players who weren’t doing as well. Rather the meters were used to have the class officers aid those struggling players and give them guidance and lo and behold,improvement was seen. Unfortunately these days,people trade fun for an unhealthy e-sports obsessed mentality and bring others down or drive them away from the game,and often follow the more narcissistic members of the community that make the WoW community as a whole look bad.

Tldr- we were all noobs once,if given guidance and positive reinforcement many players can improve. Only a narcissist would believe themselves good from the getgo and share joy in belittling and shaming other players. A good start for the raiding community to restore its good name would be to call out the bad eggs in their BS. Good sportsmanship good,being a jackass under the guise of “competitive” bad. Be a real teacher,NOT the roid raging coach in pee wee football.

edit-typo here and there,on my phone

3 Likes
672

Not what I was saying but nice try in trying to twist my words,envy has nothing to do with my grievance [why do people always go for the “you’re just jealous” strawman first?!.] For context,working for gear ISN’T the issue I have but moreso how people seem hellbent on keeping those they perceive as undesirables out and the more spiteful side of me wants to see more QoL to cull them as these players are rude,nasty and full of themselves like the paladin I replied to. To sum it up as clear and concise My issue is that these people who see casuals as riff-raff who don’t belong in raiding are the same people claiming to want community but turn their nose up at said community. There are cool raiders BUT there are also raiders who think they should be able to lord over people just because they prioritized WoW in ye olde days of Vanilla where the rich were getting richer and the poor got poorer and seem determined to regress the game back to the raid or die formula. These are the same people who constantly lobby for the removal of LFR even though it has no direct effect on them unless they get THAT triggered over people getting gear almost as good as theirs so they can potentially progress the other difficulties given there weren’t third party add ons and scores to shame them with tacked on hence they stick with LFR.

I raided in BC-mid to late MoP normal with a bit of heroic later down the road on my old main [mythic wasn’t a thing yet neither were the e-sports tourneys outside of arena bollocks,stopped at MoP due to old rig giving out and a personal family matter ] and before then I geared through PVP so it’s always baffled me why people would wish to exclude other players from the fun I got to experience from those days outside of an ego trip and potentially just being stingy/selfish as though they didn’t want to lose their special snowflake status.

The guilds I raided with were really cool and we progressed fairly well but raiders still had a reputation to shake off BECAUSE of the gatekeeping jerks and the “cull the scrubs/fake gamers mentality” and even listed my grievances on how features for them were road blocked through DPS meters which weren’t meant to be used the way they do,higher than what drops item level requirement,AOTC achievement meta class spec combos and ONLY meta spec combos [because "Big D*** DPS over actual strategy and tactics] and raider IO to shame players and pretty much imply nothing they do matters even though Group Finder was made for the casuals who aren’t in guilds or had the misfortune of being in one that disbanded due to players quitting so riddle me this. To get into anything higher than LFR they need gear but HOW pray tell [outside of getting lucky and finding a non griefed world quest boss] can they get said gear they need in order to get more gear?! You say it isn’t important,but how do you even know that the armor they received isn’t going to matter to them? They busted their hump,got something cool despite what some rando thinks of them and got to experience content they never thought they’d get to experience [hence the mentions of needless roadblocks and sabotage that occurs when they make a group] I’m pretty sure doing all that leaves just as much achievement as those who thought the player in question didn’t deserve it.

Hells,if I was still raiding if more people wanted to try it my answer would be “Hell yeah,the more the merrier,this raid is WAY too good to not have people experience it themselves.” Not everyone wants to watch vicariously through youtube,games in their entirety are meant to be played and not just watched from the sidelines. Again,jealousy has nothing to do with it but more or less the frustration of seeing the raiding community becoming a shadow of it’s former self and wanting to regress to a time where the rich got richer and the poor got poorer rather than having a few players rise above the ranks. We get that enough IRL with the likes of the GOP and Trump administration constantly trying to undermine progress for the underprivileged and keeping them from being able to get out of their poverty status no matter how hard they try to do so so why bring that kind of garbage mentality to the game? To me this hostility towards casuals and moderates is just asinine,they can’t learn and collectively pull themselves up by their bootstraps if every means to do so is blocked or said boot straps keep getting deliberately cut.

1 Like
673

Never seen a thread where people demand raiding is removed.

Never heard of anyone ingame asking for it to be removed.

See countless sarcastic threads from raiders calling PvP a “minigame” or saying it needs to be removed though.

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675

It’s amazing how many people dont understand that RPG doesn’t stand for Requirss Playing in Groups.

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676

pants, clutches chest

Did… somebody… say CRUSADE?! I got here… as fast… as I could…

Ok… what are we crusading against? Ok, alright, sounds good.

CASUAL VULT!

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677

And you need to understand that as long as your “discussion” takes away from my progression path then I’m vehemently against it. If you cant be happy getting a much higher overall gear level in a far shorter time than me then that’s a you problem.
The “high end” aspects of the game should be given as much resources as the % of people who partake. Gaming has evolved and people won’t pay for a game that they are locked out of 50% or more of. Just look at Wildstar. It stood for everything you are espousing and it failed miserably. If it had such a great premise it should have been flooded with your mythical 12million ex-Wife raiders who will magically come back if the game returns to Vanilla mechanics. It should have had so much money it would have been able to get past any issues it had but look what happened. Your millions of hardcore fans never showed up, it didn’t attract any casual subs, and it folded.

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678

Short answer: Yes.

679

And I worked exclusively on my main for 4 weeks getting Pathfinder 2, and I’m only 406 after spending all my Pearl’s on upgrades. At that rate I will take me at least 3 months more to reach the same level you’re at. To me the systems are perfect. The available time discrepancy is why I can’t support your reasoning. If there isn’t a system designed for casuals at my level then we won’t magically push to “get gud” since we dont have the time or schedule. We will more than likely just unsub, and maybe not come back.

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680
681

It’s not a progression path. Randomly getting a god tier item from a world quests isn’t a ‘path’.

It really didn’t, it was a mediocre game overall. So I’m dismissing the rest of your post.

If that’s the best you have, it’s not looking good for the pro-titanforge side.

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682

And the IOC banned the high tech swimsuits only the richer countries could afford because they looked too sexy?? And every level of auto racing setting engine and design limits is to make the cars look better?? Not to mention drug rules in every sport (except curling, you have to be hammered to do that :see_no_evil::speak_no_evil::hear_no_evil:)?? Real sports all have gear rules (templates) so to speak so no one can just buy a championship. Why shouldn’t WoW be the same. And why are tou at all against this if you are complaining that someone with lower skill than you can do the same things.

683

According to you anyway… Btw it is just opinion and not truth.

684

The hard concept is that some people will always feel that they have to do EVERYTHING in order to get that sub 1% (245 dps out of 34000+ for Benthic boots) gain. Since they dont have any self control their only resort is to complain to get all the other rewards lessened. If you eat everyone else’s food at dinner dont complain your too full for dessert. And definitely dont try to take my food away or limit me to only salads.
Again, I dont want raiding or PvP removed, and PvPers definitely should be able to get gear equivalent to raid gear via PvP. But a couple of pieces overlapped are ok.

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685

And this is the impasse… You feel the current game requires you to do things you dont want so your only recourse is to quit. I would feel the same exact way if the game was designed the way you described. I’m not here to change your mind, I’m just here to make sure blizzard is presented the opposing view so they cant go "the masses have spoken and there was no dissenting opinions ". I dont want your stuff removed, and you dont have to do my stuff, you just cant control yourself. You want my stuff removed of nerfed, and then I would have to do your stuff.

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686

Because then a lot of it would be better than the gear we can earn doing our activities and then I would feel bad about my progression and/or “forced” into raiding to improve my character. Exactly the same thing all the raiders have been saying this whole thread. Sounds pretty stupid doesn’t it??
How about this…all gear drops at 385. Then it gets a bonus based upon it being used where it came from. LFR gear is 400 in a raid, Mythic gear is 445. Same for PvP, 385 open world, whatever ilevel when used in a pvp setting (but not warmode), WQ/benthic gear is 385 in raids and PvP instances, but whatever it’s real level is openworld. That way everyone is only “forced” to do their own stuff.