The crusade against Raiders has to stop

Community General Discussion
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I fail to see this as an acceptable answer. It was designed that way, we agree on that much. The disagreement is whether it should have been designed that way or not.

They could have written any number of ways that it was acquired. Gnomes had their own entire story that was separate from everything else. It relied on nothing but it’s own merits (and I liked it a lot).

Why, exactly, did Tauren heritage armor have to be tied to Baine and his story? Baine is not the sole ancestry and heritage of Tauren. He isn’t the only vehicle through which the ancestral heritage of Tauren could be told. So… why him, why this?

In fact, why don’t Tauren deserve their own extra story, like Gnomes had, that exists in addition to the current story about the races?

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No, he just mentioned how much LFR he has done. He didn’t mention anything about what they were doing in the other aspects of the game which make up far more than just raiding does.

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I never implied that you were bad, nor do I think so. However I have pointed out how silly it is to resist something with the vigor that you have, when it is far more hassle to do so than just completing the objective and having your reward. The ease of the task does actually matter because why complain about something that is so easily accomplished? You could have literally run the raid wing in LFR and have your armor set unlocked by now, for the time you have invested in this thread explaining why you don’t want to do it.

If you are resisting it on principle solely because “It is in a raid instance and I don’t raid” then fine, I can’t convince you to do it. But for the 20 minutes it would take, maybe step out of your comfort zone so you can get what you want.

I’m not trying to convince you that raiding is fun, or the optimal game experience, or anything else. Simply that it is a bigger waste of your time to be grumpy about it versus doing it once and moving on.

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I already have a job, I don’t need another one. <3

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The problem stems from the fact you are putting more into what I am doing. I pointed out the differences in his points, and just stated I don’t plan on doing it. There’s no vigor, grumpiness(well, not grumpy at the raid requirement, grumpy at what you’re doing), or complaining on my part. I’m not sure why you’re taking the effort to argue with me so much about it. For me, I’m not so much arguing against your point, just arguing against what you claim I’m doing. Eh, guess I just don’t like people misrepresenting/twisting things I say.

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It’s because there was one single tier for each raid (not divided into lfr, normal, heroic, mythic) and it was built into the game with immersion where now it’s just overly gimmicky with tiers and esports. Adding huge ilvl gaps each content patch and having the scaling only on specific types of content is what makes this much more apparent.

Another big part of it is that raiders/m+ think that any gear outside of that content is automatically wellfare. Of course people are going to be against it more if they are saying “only our content is allowed to be rewarding”. Blizzard could easily make all types of content have equal rewards while being engaging and difficult. There could be mage tower/brawlers guild type of encounters or other tasks similar to how they have essences set up.

In vanilla-wrath the gaps weren’t so vast and you still felt like you had a place in the world adventuring around in whatever type of content you enjoyed. Now it seems like if you aren’t in the esports focused content you don’t get to fulfill this and any time someone asks for other content to be equal raiders/m+ put them down.

It was until the end of wrath and subs constantly went up and peaked there. Adding multiple raid difficulties is part of what made the game worse.

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234

At least we have Classic coming. I get sad every time I log into live and see how this once beautiful MMO has turned into a series of mini games that has alienated the player base and destroyed the immersion of playing a RPG that got it’s DNA from DnD table top style games.

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This is one of my major problems with the game right now. We haven’t even touched on how we’re jumping ilvls after an ilvl squish. We started at around 200-250? We’re already almost 500 ilvl and when the expansion drops they have to go through another heap of ilvls through leveling, M0 and then start again with the 1st raid. At this rate we’re going to be all the way back to Legion ilvls within the 10.0 - 11.0

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People who hate on raiding are the ones who cant raid because they get kicked because the are trash and get mad when you tell them they are trash because they dont know their rotation, their stats, or mechanics. Sometimes all of those. If raiding were to cease, I would quit and this game would die so quick by many more qutting too. But handing out gear like candy just for passively playing needs to stop, its a very bad problem.

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I’ll be honest, I installed WoW in 2016 fully expecting a crowd of no life raiders utterly demolishing me. I never expected the leveling world to be on par.

And I figured, in my naivety, that trying to catch up with veterans was a hopeless endeavor. Then I discovered that Blizzard has tried hard to bring new players like myself and players with little to no time, hence no serious guilds, into the fold.

This is what we have now. Two diametrically opposed groups of players seeking validation.

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Or they say they don’t have time to play, because they have a 3 jobs, 12 kids and they attend school full time. Yet, you never see them log off and they have 16 runs through LFR, endlessly farm old content, pet battle ect ect…

The sad truth outside the few players that might really not have the schedule to raid, most people will take the path of least resistance.

Lets face it too, guild raiding and the pug world can be a real hassle. Why would people want to subject themselves to that when they can just afk through LFR or famr easy world content for awesome rewards?

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I wasn’t against raiding before.

But this thread has changed me.

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Correct. And when you make a claim you need to support that claim with something objective demonstrating that it’s true. Hell, you tried to demand proof of me for not believing your claim lol.

Wrong. You said this to me:

I said this:

Those two statements are not the same thing. That was your attempt to goalpost shift.
We started here:

And that was followed with you disagreeing. First “You’re really going to argue that ZERO people…” yes, 1 person who might have done that doesn’t mean jack. That’s your attempt to reduce your position to a distinction without a difference. We’re talking about how LFR impacted the raid scene. And 1 guy who does LFR instead of doing organized raiding is not a substantive impact. Second, you can’t even prove any of them actually exist. When you can let me know :slight_smile: Third we know your details are wrong. You claimed Blizzard made LFR to get people into raiding. Here’s where you said that…

Except we have Blizzard’s own FAQ on the matter that explains to us exactly who it was designed for:

Q. Who is Raid Finder for?

A. Raid Finder is primarily intended for players who don’t already raid consistently. These are players who may not have had the opportunity to take part in raid content due to scheduling conflicts, playtime constraints, limited access to other raid-capable players, or a lack of experience with higher-end content. These players may want to experience World of Warcraft’s raid content and storyline without being able to commit to the additional time investment of a raiding guild. The Raid Finder is also a great way to quickly and easily gear up alternate characters without having to worry about raid lockouts.

So yes, your position and recollection seems a tad skewed based upon your opinions my man. So that leads us back to the beginning.

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I agree with you. The crusade against raiders should stop. So too should the crusade against casuals and dungeoneers. Wouldn’t all of us on the forums be happier and more productive if we never had to see another Benthic Gear Complaint, LFR Removal Thread, or Casuals vs. Raiders Post made?

I believe we would. I’m ready to sign an long-term armistice if everyone else is. ^^

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Ah sorry bout that, I was bouncing back through links to posts, maybe I snagged something from the wrong one. Apologies. I’ll see if I can find and correct it quick.

Edit: Ah yes, I quoted where the tangent started from. I can remove you the post quoting and just put regular quotes in if you want.

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Nm I think I know why, it makes sense after all

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The forum would be ghost town, well GD, minus complaints.

GD = complaint and venting forum.

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Did you ever think the sagging subs in Cata was one of the reasons they brought LFR into the game? Why wasn’t this system brought into TBC or Wrath, you know the expansions where the game was growing?

Did you ever think this description of LFR you posted is nothing more than PR speak to cover up the fact that Cata was in really poor shape at the end? That there was hardly any content for actual casuals then and the raid scene pretty much tanked because Dragon Soul was a crappy raid.

LFR was brought into the game to stem the bleeding. They knew their raid scene was dying because of the lackluster Dragon Soul raid.

The sad fact is, actual casual players that really don’t like raiding got the shaft for a long time. LFR was forced on them in place of actual casual content. Sad indeed.

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I tend not to go into tin foil hat conspiracy territory so no.

Again, do you have anything at all that speaks to the matter of intent objectively beyond your poor opinion of Blizzard? Because I don’t really care unless you do.

And your an example of confirmation bias in action. Got it.

LFR was made to give them an easy opportunity to see the story that they were previously cut out of. That’s one of the reasons. That’s a positive thing, not a bad thing. Sad is your cynicism and obvious disdain for the direction the game has gone in the past decade yet you keep playing and crying about it.

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Thats the thing though, raid participation was not an issue in Wrath. Unless you didn’t play then?

Look all you LFR defenders can try to spin spin spin all you want. That single system did more harm to the game than anything else that was introduced.

I love how people forget that Ghostcrawler expressed great regret for creating it. There is his exact quote.

I have a lot of regrets about Raid Finder for WoW. I am sure I worked on features that were much, much worse, but that’s the first one that came to mind.

To be clear, the goal of getting more players into raiding is a good one. But the way Raid Finder turned out removed, IMO anyway, a lot of the epicness of what made raiding raiding. I also haven’t played WoW in a few years, so it’s entirely possible they have solved the problem by now."

Edit: I pulled this post from the old forums spells things out a lot better.

Certainly. First of all, this thread is referring to Ghostcrawler’s thoughts on his creation. Remember, he was a lead dev on the project.

Moving on, LFR’s original creation was to allow players to continue the story line. Before Dragon Soul, if you didn’t participate in the raids, you never got to see the cut scenes and story development that the entire expansions were presented around. LFR was originally aimed to curve that. Of course, they threw in additional raid-like gear to give people an incentive to return.

There was an additional goal here, however, one that Ghostcrawler points out as the mistake. The additional goal was to use LFR as a way to push and encourage people into raiding with other players. Afterall, that’s long been the ultimate goal of traditional MMOs like everquest etc.

LFR was originally a stepping stone, a way to hook players into the raiding scene and get more people out there raiding in the traditional setting.

The mistake, however, was that LFR worked a little well in itself. Instead of pushing players to move on - it ironically fostered players into LFR as their end game. Now this normally wouldn’t be an issue, except for the fact that there is no difficulty in LFR. Why is this a big deal? Well without any additional progression etc. it’s easy to get burned out. This causes player apathy, content drought, etc. This was the first real issue with LFR that Ghostcrawler noticed. It didn’t serve it’s purpose at all. LFR was never intended by the dev team to be the end game and Ghostcrawler believed that it actually brought raiding a step backward, instead of forward.

Blizzard tried to combat this by reducing the rewards in LFR in WoD to encourage players to raid in the traditional sense - and in some ways it worked - but not without mixed feelings and some definite anger. (no more shinies for no effort etc)

It has nothing to do with the view that others players have on each other - which seems to be what you’re getting at - and everything to do with the original goal markers they set for LFR and ultimately not meeting them.- Feyyras