So, it’s ok for the keyholder to be me me me, just not anyone else in the group?
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No you get loot for the hard content you just did. It’s comments like this that make me feel like people only regard the gauntlet of finding the key holder and group as the only challenge.
Don’t help the gatekeepers, they don’t need help.
Also when people say “lockout” we mean level 12 of the dungeon is now locked for the week, you can still do levels 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,and so on. It’s silly that you don’t know that and panic like a toddler that just lost a friggen toy!
It makes the whole system revolve around how good you are at making groups without having to find a key holder.
No more keys getting destroyed, no more having to carry a bad key holder. Just an alternate way to gear that’s not about raiding in its purest form.
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People currently don’t even do all of the 20+ levels anyway. They look at a chart to see what level of gear drops at what level or see what the vault requirement is and they try to do the highest they can. The slow progression one level at a time is just a horrible grindy key mechanic that doesn’t need to exist.
The system as it is is super grindy to progress to a certain level (or re-grind a key if you fail). Having fewer levels is more respectful of player time and it makes it easier to find groups of specific difficulties since you’re spread over looking for a small handful of difficulties instead of 20.
This would be about making it less of a massive grindfest. The gear that does drop would be of higher value than it is now ilvl wise.
I could see implementing the other suggestions without this so you could still target farm a specific item and just have the new upgrading system be the time-gate with upgrade mats.
The overall idea is trying to make the system feel less like an infinite potential grind as I think that’s currently one of the biggest turn offs.
The removal of keys I think would also allow for more casual groups that aren’t as timer focused to form. Currently some people don’t try the content because of the key + timer combo (they don’t want to waste someone’s key and can’t find groups that don’t care about the timer currently).
True, though I think it makes sense that a lot of people just stopped raiding (or never started in some cases) because they didn’t want to be on a schedule and raid schedules just go along with the larger size of groups since you need a lot more people to show up at the same time. 5 man end-game content is a lot more flexible.
A lot of people quit raiding back when master looting was the primary kind of looting. Your time may not have been as valued as other people in the group. Personal loot is better for individuals in that way.
There are tons of keys run at all levels. Yes, for players who have already reached a level of proficiency above where meaningful rewards stop for them, there are specific key levels they will farm for the rewards. But to act like players aren’t ever running a +13 key because that’s where their skill level currently sits is absurd.
You’re putting words in my mouth here. I never said needing to grind up keys one at a time is necessarily the best way to go about handling things. The fact that you can push up a key that’s clearly beneath your group’s level by up to +3 helps with this, but I certainly wouldn’t oppose some way to fast track that to some point you’ve proven to compete at.
You’re only looking at this from the perspective of players needing to push their key up painfully slowly at the start of a season or after having dropped their key a few times for some reason. You’re completely ignoring the main part of my response, the scaling difficulty. There are teams which can time a +11 that can’t complete a +15. It’s better for those players to have +11 keys and +15 keys and levels in between to be able to dial in on a difficulty that’s challenging without being impossible than to have a singular difficulty that’s grouping a large range of keys that exist today. It might be disrespectful of the time of the player who can do +20s to have to painfully raise their +11 to a +15, but not for the group who is trying to work their skills from the point where a +15 becomes as easy to time as a +11 does currently.
I have no issues with reducing the seemingly infinite grindfest, that certainly is a problem. I wouldn’t oppose gear that drops being super low (by comparison to a similar raid difficulty) but with access to an upgrade currency that allows players to get those items up to a respectable level in a decent clip but slower than it happens today.
Blizzard just has to be careful to not create a purely M+ log scenario. When low quality gear at the start of a season limits a team to 10+ key levels lower than what they’re capable of by skill alone, those players are basically done playing M+ for a week as soon as they reach their gear cap for the week. If that’s after 40 hours of gameplay (as an example), that’s probably not too bad. But if it’s effectively 1 run of each dungeon at the highest bracket they can complete, that’s 4 hours and a lot of teams would be done by the second day after the weekly reset.
I don’t doubt this at all. It’s just each of us has our own bias for which mode we want to see doing better, and it becomes easy to lose sight of the other perspectives. There are many reasons why people will put down raiding, and the pressure to farm M+ endlessly I’m sure is a big one. But we also can’t forget about how many people never gave WoW a chance and/or left shortly after trying it when raids were the only PvE endgame. We can’t forget the M+ players who would stop playing if the dungeon game mode took all the faults of raid besides the logistics of raid organization and threw it into their game mode. None of us have the data to intelligently engage in these discussions, so I will push back any time only one side of this coin is considered.
But if you can skip straight to 20. Take forever to do the dungeon. Why have any progression?
I am panicking because I said…
What? What do you see as “panic” there? Just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t mean they are panicking or whining.
I never voted for anyone to represent me and thus I reject any idea or opinion this “council” gives.
make sense please…because you do get a chance at loot every time you kill a boss…
the rest of your comment clearly states you don’t understand my point.
It makes perfect sense. in M+, the entire dungeon is the boss. If you have not cleared the entire dungeon, you did not beat the boss.
Then you get afk kicked and get the penalty or if you’re petty enough to move every few seconds then blizz need to improve their report system and get you temporarily banned.
What if it’s a failed run? Then have a forfeit vote if 3 or 4 of the 5 people vote pass then the run is dead. Or if the timer runs out then anyone can leave without penalty.
This is what? Like quite literally what every other game does except WoW
if i’m in a group that’s already racked up 12 deaths before the first boss, that’s a failed run. i shouldn’t have to wait another 25 minutes for the timer to officially run out.
this is going to be my new “Take a drink” phrase
Slapping faces while holding people hostage is gonna mess me up
I have a hard time understanding this mindset.
How is it holding someone hostage? You are free to leave whenever you want. theres just gonna be a consequence if you do.
its almost like someone not getting thier way is considerded being held hostage.
I didnt get BiS Loot this run, i was “Held hostage” the entire run!
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There are already consequences for leaving: you don’t get loot or score.
What these requests really want is to punish people who don’t want to be stuck in their trap key.
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on the other hand perhaps they are upset because the leavers force these same consequences upon the entire group with no choice in the matter. Ive never run M+ but If someone leaves a M+ is not everyone else is also punished with no loot or score?
I suppose in a perfect world… (or slightly better than what we get) being able to speak your piece on why you left would be nice.
However that would entail having someone review every statement and go over game logs to pass judgement on them to determine if the offense deserves punishment. (not only for M+leavers but folks who feel they were kicked wrongly etc.) resources i dont see the game allocating anytime soon. so we get robotic parameters that are in black and white.
Yup, and on top of that, the key holder gets a downgraded key.
So the leaver can just leave and join another group for the exact same key and level. Meanwhile the keyholder has to re-grind their key to get it back up.
Keystone charges would probably be a good balance to “fixing” this. But I like the Torghast interface too. Tired of having systems in a video game that punishes people for playing.
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I’ve had my key bricked a few times, and it really sucks, but it was never so frequent that I’ve wanted a debuff in place. Hell, life happens and I’ve had to be the person to drop before (not that the debuff would have mattered, I had I log). Explained myself, it happens.
I have also been in some horrorshow keys where we were so off time no one got loot or score. That happens, but it was a learning experience I had the time for.
However, if leavers are happening to someone with such frequency that they need the same penalties as LFD? I am pretty sure the problem is closer to home.
Besides, at a certain point the only reason you’re in a key is to time. Loot will stop scaling after a while, and for pushers it is irrelevant. They want score. If the dungeon it looks for certain that it will not be timed, it’s “GG”, and dropped.
There are so many variables.
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Sounds delicious. What flavor is it?
No one leaves a good group, with good players.
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Ok? Let them stay… I’m getting the last laugh at the end of the day. I’ve become very patient. It isn’t a common issue, so this type of punishment should be more than acceptable or worse could be done.
It tastes coarse, rough, and irritating. Worst of all it gets everywhere.